Bertie Ahern. (4 Viewers)

[Pedronimus]

People will vote FF in again. For the very reason nothing ever changes here. Despite overwhelming support for gay marriage, an improved health service, better services overall, they won't happen.

I may have perhaps wrongly thought you were suggesting that gay marriage was as high on the public's list of priorities as the health service and better services in general. And now this thread has turned into a thread as to whether gay marriage would be legalised or not. I think everyone who posted so far is pro gay marriage. So i'm not debating that point anymore. Incrementally I think it would be legalised.

 

[Raudi Raus Schinkel]

Sometimes people launch into a personal attacks on people's character on this board when they express their views, which is shit.

People being called conservative, one person even compared another to Stalin or Hitler

Not everyone thinks the same, it does not make them conservative.

Why is it that if anyone expresses anything other than the overtly , and may I say preditable, left-wing view, they are called conservative.

A balanced person can take or leave ideologies of several parties.

There is a lot of assumption that people don't know what's best for them, and that those people need others to think on behalf of them-this marxist ideology ( well this part of it) disgusts me.

 

[Pedronimus]

There's a sense of defeatedness, denial about having any power to change things. Yes, you need a critical mass to change the way shit is, and in a country where a lot of people seem to vote based on family tradition more than policy or whatever, that's not going to be easy.

That kind of thing is slowly changing, I remember as a kid my Dad used to be able to name the political affiliation of every house we drove passed within a 12 mile radius of our house. Now 20 years on its really not as cut and dry as that.

This 'better the devil you know' attitude that people seem to have is very conservative.

I don't think anyone suggested in this thread, to just do nothing things won't change. Myself and Raudi were just point out that perhaps alot of people don't want too much change. Or certainly not the change you or I want.

 

[broken arm]

Sometimes people launch into a personal attacks on people's character on this board when they express their views, which is shit.

People being called conservative, one person even compared another to Stalin or Hitler

Not everyone thinks the same, it does not make them conservative.

Why is it that if anyone expresses anything other than the overtly , and may I say preditable, left-wing view, they are called conservative.

A balanced person can take or leave ideologies of several parties.

There is a lot of assumption that people don't know what's best for them, and that those people need others to think on behalf of them-this marxist ideology ( well this part of it) disgusts me.

shut it, skank.

 

[magicbastarder]

To go from homosexuality being illegal until 1993 to the way things are now, where gay marriage is even on the agenda at all is absolutely huge.

a gay friend of mine, from america, finds it incredible; when he first arrived here, they were crowbarring condom machines off the walls in pub toilets. sodomy between two men was illegal (it was legal to bum your wife). he reckons the average irish person under 30 doesn't really realise how much things have changed, because they grew up with it.

i can remember the fuss over virgin megastore selling condoms, and can remember priests railing from the pulpits at the evil of such things.

 

[Raudi Raus Schinkel]

shut it, skank.

fuck it it's the 29th of Feb tomorrow

 

[broken arm]

i that vinnie and hector grey-dip?

 

[Pedronimus]

a gay friend of mine, from america, finds it incredible; when he first arrived here, they were crowbarring condom machines off the walls in pub toilets. sodomy between two men was illegal (it was legal to bum your wife). he reckons the average irish person under 30 doesn't really realise how much things have changed, because they grew up with it.

i can remember the fuss over virgin megastore selling condoms, and can remember priests railing from the pulpits at the evil of such things.

It's seems that it is the thought of change that freaks most people out, rather than actual change itself. Remember the fuss over the plastic bag levy? or the change over to euros? and the people who thought they would never get their heads around it. The smoking ban?

Same I would say for gay marriage. Get some sort of legal recognition then maybe push for the whole legal marriage. It will eventually happen, people will realise the sky won't fall in and will get on with their lives. I still don't think its high on many straight peoples priorities.

 

[snakybus]

Pete the drummer makes sense. He's simply pointing out that it's not as simple as "th'aul fella voted for Bertie so I'n goan teh", or "better the divil you know". Although this is often the case, and of course is a problem in modern politics (and not just in Ireland) this kind of blanket generalisation does a disservice to many thinking, concerned voters who -- even if you disagree with them -- actually do have genuine and complex reasons for voting for particular candidates. Another thing: where did this idea come from that "conservative" is an insult? That kind of partisan "you're-either-with-us-or-against-us" tactic is obtuse, divisive and unhelpful.

 

[Raudi Raus Schinkel]

Another thing: where did this idea come from that "conservative" is an insult? That kind of partisan "you're-either-with-us-or-against-us" tactic is obtuse, divisive and unhelpful.

I know it was meant as an insult, but it's grand. I took it to be an insult tho.

 

[snakybus]

I know it was meant as an insult, but it's grand. I took it to be an insult tho.

I actually don't think it was meant as an insult, but as a rhetorical device. It's common among people who are interested in music or the arts in general to be terrified of being seen as in any way conservative, so it's a potent, emotive way of getting people on your side. Actually, come to think of it, Hitler employed propaganda in a similar way in Germany! (joke)

 

[nofunchee]

i dunno, i think ireland is fairly conservative. but i guess it depends on what or who you're comparing it to. if you compare it to the ireland of 50 years ago we're progressive as fuck. if you're a lefty type and compare popular views to your own then it's conservative.

i think the majority of people are pretty up for human rights, equality, end to poverty, good healthcare system, etc. but fairly apathetic about them because they are long-term and complex. there's many a theory and a whole load of bullshit on how best to manage a society and that shit is hard to navigate when you've to worry about work, family, the gaff, etc. it's hard to access accurate or balanced information on societal problems. enter frustration, fear, bigotry, religion, and better the devil you know.

fear is the biggest barrier to change.

 

[jane]

People were saying that there didn't seem to be much point in trying to change the government because there wouldn't be anyone decent to take their place.

I used 'conservative' because the 'better the devil you know' attitude goes along with a fear of change, and an unwillingness to change is conservative.

People might be nominally in favour of equality and rights, but they don't really want to do much to make things change. Fair enough if people think gay rights and feminism and suchlike have nothing to do with them, it's still conservatism and, as has been pointed out already by people other than me, it's the way most people are. That 'it would be nice to have' pile without doing anything to push for it is conservative. It's going with the status quo because it's easier.

I was also going on the numerous occasions when I and others have ended up having to defend what most generally liberal thinkers pretty much take as a given. Thumped is pretty conservative.

Nice accusations there, though. I've really enjoyed the passive aggression of, "I don't care if it wasn't meant as an insult, I'm taking it as one because I'm looking for a fight," and comparing me to Hitler. I don't care if it was a joke, Snaky, it was totally out of line.

I don't have a vote here anyway, so who gives a fuck what I think, eh?

Man, I love how people jump all over me whenever they get an opportunity.

Cue the patronising shit about how I could improve, which is fucking typical.

 

[jane]

I actually don't think it was meant as an insult, but as a rhetorical device. It's common among people who are interested in music or the arts in general to be terrified of being seen as in any way conservative, so it's a potent, emotive way of getting people on your side. Actually, come to think of it, Hitler employed propaganda in a similar way in Germany! (joke)

Snaky, when do I ever have people on my side? I meant it. If people give up because they don't think change is possible, that's not very open-minded, is it?

I kind of assumed that people on here couldn't be too afraid of being seen as conservative, since the 'too cool to care' attitude is pretty prevalent. Like jokingly comparing someone to Hitler as a follow-up to a passive-aggressive comment instead of just coming out with what you have to say. That's pretty undignified.

 

[MDR]

Lads, don't slag Hitler - he's not here to defend himself.

 

[Unicron]

Lads, don't slag Hitler - he's not here to defend himself.

Some of his mates post here, it's not nice for them to have to read it.

 

[Buzzo]

Deadly thread. It's making me think lots. My 100p:

S'mad, I just finished watching All the Presidents Men (after about 4 gos, falling asleep each time. I'm crap at films).

I felt so cross at the end of it.
I was thinkin AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGHGHGHGHGHG (really) I HATE that so many people have their self-esteem and their future prospects ruined by being sent to prison for the most stupid, silly, minor offences, while powerful people engage in arguably infinitely more significant and destructive criminal behaviours and get away with it. Why? Because 'they' make and define the laws, and the penalties for specific breeches. It's designed to move poor people through quickly and without hassle (crimes that poor people commit are generally quite clearly defined and punished), while the facilities and structures exist for powerful people to get away with crazily bigger crimes, or delay the justice process to such an extent that the general public forget about it because they're too busy picking interest out of their holes. Scapegoatery of the poor and freedom of the powerful is so deeply embedded in our justice system it's scary, but I don't think it's unchangeable.
Who we vote in is reflective of our priorities as a community. I realise it's been said before, but when we actively care about the fact that life is really fucked up for lots of people because of structurally enforced inequality, then there's a chance we'll vote for people who don't act as paragons of selfish greed and perpetuate it.

I apologise for being a bit overly simplistic but it's bleedin true.

F U Bertrude, n all ya m8z.

 

[nofunchee]

the eulogies are flooding in. today's irish times letters page:

THE TAOISEACH AND THE TRIBUNAL

• Madam, - Bertie Ahern is a pragmatist, but that's how politicians are. While my regard for him has been diluted by his recent obfuscation and possible lies, I try not to lose sight of the bigger picture.
  I remember the tributes paid to George Colley after he died. It was said he wanted to be Taoiseach because holding the office would enable him to do things for his country. He did not want power for power's sake, like his divisive and corrupt rival.
  I don't claim to know Bertie Ahern's mindset as his career was heading towards the Taoiseach's office, but I can look at what he has done.
  He was an experienced and successful negotiator as a minister because he never displayed his own cards. He listened and found consensus between opposing sides. This was not "cute hoorism" or deviousness; it was the talent he brought to the table, and it worked.
  Meanwhile, as he succeeded in public life, he was having private difficulties. Unlike businessmen in a tight spot, he wasn't in a position to work harder and make more money.
  What happened next was unethical but I don't condemn him for taking "dig-outs" (His pragmatic decision to allow US military use of Shannon Airport was far more unethical, but that's another letter.) Aware of his own worth and previous accomplishments, Bertie would have known that he still had a lot to offer his country. In due course he was a pivotal figure in the Northern Ireland peace process - the culmination of his proven negotiating capabilities.
  Over the years he had to be hypocritical in the Dáil chamber, but the alternative was to fall on his sword early and accomplish no more. The world stage is peppered with politicians whose moral compasses merely ask will they or won't they be found out. Bertie Ahern is not perfect - and there is a long list of things he and his Government have got wrong or failed to do. But, in the long run, history will be kind to this Taoiseach. - Yours, etc,
  ROBERT DUFFY, Woodside, Hacketstown, Co Carlow.
  Madam, - We are now witnessing the slow, relentless political torture of Bertie Ahern, which is the equivalent of death by a thousand cuts. Bertie has the proven ability to withstand this, but can we stomach it? - Yours, etc,
  JAMES McCUMISKEY, Rosetta Park, Belfast.

speaking of eulogies feckin' mad: http://www.instanteulogy.org/

 

[Pedronimus]

and comparing me to Hitler. I don't care if it was a joke, Snaky, it was totally out of line.

I was the one originally being referred to as Hitler (and Stalin), I think he was carrying on that as a joke.

I don't have a vote here anyway, so who gives a fuck what I think, eh?

Some people agreed with you, in fact I agreed with alot(maybe most) of your points in this thread.

Man, I love how people jump all over me whenever they get an opportunity.

Stop taking every difference of opinion as a personal sleight or bullying.

 

[broken arm]

I was the one originally being referred to as Hitler (and Stalin), I think he was carrying on that as a joke.

i dunno, probably something to do with your avatar