Bertie Ahern. (2 Viewers)

[broken arm]

Well if you want to get into semantics, i'm gonna bow out of this thread. You know what I mean. I'm referring to the large section of people who voted for Fianna Fail. Who are the largest voting block in the country.

I know technically they didn't get 51% but the PR system is supposed to the fairest system, rather than a first past the post as they have in the UK. It's a major factor in why the Lib Dems can't get into power sharing situation. I really don't know what your getting at? Are you proposing another system? are you suggesting they rigged the election? are you suggesting another party be in power?

it's not sematics. i'm challenging your assumptions. I think it is just lazy to suggest/assume that people are purely selfish and driven to vote for selfish means. You're also trying to shore up some real concerns into sound bites that make little sense.

i don't know why i'm been confrontational. long day in work. wanna kiss?

 

[Goff]

I wasn't referring to gays as abnormal. Though re-reading the sentence I could see how it might be misinterpreted, though I think you were quick to jump on your high horse.

I was using normal folk as substitue for regular punter? average joe? Which is hard to do without sounding condescending. I can't think of the correct term to use. I know gay marriage is a huge issue for alot of people. But for most people I would say it isn't. In the terms of a politician's correspondence, I would say it amounts to a very small percentage.

I don't abide by Fianna Fails policies nor do I like Bertie Ahern. I was just trying highlight maybe why people keep voting for him and his party and maybe don't really care so much about his monetary problems.

There's no need to refer to me as Hitler. I'm pro gay marriage.

You should just say what you mean then. Because what you said certainly sounded more condescending than "average joe".

You'd be surprised how many letters are about gay marriage/civil unions. Trevor isn't just mooting this on a whim. And Fianna Fáil, who are fairly pro-the idea, are letting the Greens be the ones to forward it so they don't lose their ultra-catholic vote.

What you refer to as a high horse, is actually me giving a shit about other people.

Go figure.

 

[Janer]

And Fianna Fáil, who are fairly pro-the idea, are letting the Greens be the ones to forward it so they don't lose their ultra-catholic vote.

.|..|

 

[Pedronimus]

You should just say what you mean then. Because what you said certainly sounded more condescending than "average joe".

It was a badly constructed sentence as I stated above. But, apologies if it caused offence. I'll reconstruct it. Among your average non gay person on the street I don't believe(and its only a belief) that there is the overwhelming support for gay marriage that Jane referred to, to the point where they would bring it up in written or verbal contact with a politician and it become a huge issue for said politician. For the likes of more liberal and Green TD's I'd imagine it crops up much more.

I would like think that if it came to a vote that we'd be grown up enough in this country to vote in favour of it.

You'd be surprised how many letters are about gay marriage/civil unions. Trevor isn't just mooting this on a whim. And Fianna Fáil, who are fairly pro-the idea, are letting the Greens be the ones to forward it so they don't lose their ultra-catholic vote.

I agree with you on the use of the greens to push a liberal agenda, which I'm glad is happening. I don't think we're actually in disagreement about anything really. Except for the sentiment of my rushed sentence.

 

[Raudi Raus Schinkel]

pete the drummer is bang on! fucks sake! gay marriage, as if many people who arent gay give a shit! who here is a non gay that ever wrote to a TD sayin they should be allowed marry, cop on!

Calling someone a Hitler or Stalin, whoa!

 

[Goff]

pete the drummer is bang on! fucks sake! gay marriage, as if many people who arent gay give a shit! who here is a non gay that ever wrote to a TD sayin they should be allowed marry, cop on!

Ahem...!

But then, I write about everything.

Make the fuckers earn their paltry wage packet.

 

[Goff]

I don't think we're actually in disagreement about anything really. Except for the sentiment of my rushed sentence.

You're right.

 

[jane]

Wait, since when was the only way to determine 'overwhelming support' the number of letters written to TDs about the issue? People are overwhelmingly in favour of gay marriage, it was used as an example. No one was saying that there were millions of letters from heterosexual joe soap demanding it. And anyway, they're probably going to have to legalise it in order to comply with EU law, so it won't necessarily matter. The overwhelming support is generally that people don't give as much of a shit as they used to about who marries whom. Talk about semantics!

And if it is the case that they brought the Greens into government in order to pass more socially liberal policies, that's both a positive and a negative. Positive because it means they know that some shit just has to change, and negative because they're to pussy to do it themselves for fear of losing the Rural Mammy vote. Which is crazy because they're less afraid of committing crimes than they are of helping to improve matters of equality. How sad is that? But what's probably more crazy is that none of the policies or anything have much to do with the way a lot of people vote, they just vote the way their parents voted, and their parents before them, whichever side their parents were on in the Civil War. So FF are worried about nothing.

FF are in power because people put them there. You get the government you think you deserve. George Bush is in power because he stole the election. Twice. But even without stealing, a significant proportion of American voters thought it was a good idea because, well, they didn't really fucking think about what a disaster it was going to be.

After eight years, though, they're fucking sick of him, and they want real change. Ok, some people want McCain, but as scary as he is, he *is* change (just not necessarily for the better). So yeah, things do change. And also, in Massachusetts (not a country, but a population about 125% of Ireland's), they have socialised health care *and* gay marriage, both brought in under a conservative governor. Mitt Romney, even. It wasn't even necessarily millions of people marching in the streets, it was based on support, effective campaigning, and a clear need for such change.

It is possible to have a government different from the one you have now, but not if you go around acting all defeated and pretending that the Fianna-Fail weariness is anything like an excuse.

I just can't believe the level of denial even on this board. Sometimes I forget how conservative Thumped really is.

 

[Raudi Raus Schinkel]

Wait, since when was the only way to determine 'overwhelming support' the number of letters written to TDs about the issue? People are overwhelmingly in favour of gay marriage, it was used as an example.

how many boggers do you know besides me? unfortunatly, we don't live in that kind of Ireland. we only got johnnies a few years ago.

Democracy is only the second best system, only the majority gets their chosen
government.

And it might not be any different when all those aul ones die. I was at the Ogra Fianna Fail Youth conference last Saturday, It's weird to see so many young people at a FF rally. I never came accross those people in college, but thats not to say they dont exist. Theres a whole world outside Thumped !

 

[broken arm]

how many boggers do you know besides me? unfortunatly, we don't live in that kind of Ireland. we only got johnnies a few years ago.

it's funny though. ireland thinking it's all hip and modern now that the european tax payer floated it's economy.

"Since 2005, the only other state among the original 15 European UnionGreece"


but in terms of actual surveys (and even though this was commissioned by the G&L network and had a sample of 1000 adults)

80% believe gay couples deserved legal recognition - Survey
http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/?jp=CWIDGBEYCWOJ

Irish Ponder Same-Sex Unions, Adoption
http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/10964

Ahern: Gay marriage to be legalised
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2007/07/17/story37464.asp

Newspaper says Catholic bishop backs legal rights for gay couples
http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/1116/morningireland.html

 

[Raudi Raus Schinkel]

it's funny though. ireland thinking it's all hip and modern now that the european tax payer floated it's economy.

"Since 2005, the only other state among the original 15 European UnionGreece"


but in terms of actual surveys (and even though this was commissioned by the G&L network and had a sample of 1000 adults)

80% believe gay couples deserved legal recognition - Survey
http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/?jp=CWIDGBEYCWOJ


Irish Ponder Same-Sex Unions, Adoption
http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/10964

Ahern: Gay marriage to be legalised
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2007/07/17/story37464.asp

Newspaper says Catholic bishop backs legal rights for gay couples
http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/1116/morningireland.html

thats good so, we are half way there, but still not goin for the gay marriage yet. We're a long way from San Francisco.

People only say they are for it when asked by a stupid survey, theres only a minority who actively campaign.

 

[Pedronimus]

80% believe gay couples deserved legal recognition - Survey
http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/?jp=CWIDGBEYCWOJ

read a little further down that article.....'However, the survey, commissioned by the Gay and Lesbian Network , also found that only 51% percent of people support the concept of gay marriage.'

Now I know a majority is a majority, but i think it would be very tight if it came to a referendum lets say.

 

[Raudi Raus Schinkel]

read a little further down that article.....'However, the survey, commissioned by the Gay and Lesbian Network , also found that only 51% percent of people support the concept of gay marriage.'

Now I know a majority is a majority, but i think it would be very tight if it came to a referendum lets say.

yeah i know

 

[Unicron]

Wait, since when was the only way to determine 'overwhelming support' the number of letters written to TDs about the issue? People are overwhelmingly in favour of gay marriage, it was used as an example. No one was saying that there were millions of letters from heterosexual joe soap demanding it. And anyway, they're probably going to have to legalise it in order to comply with EU law, so it won't necessarily matter. The overwhelming support is generally that people don't give as much of a shit as they used to about who marries whom. Talk about semantics!

I think his point was that while there's overwhelming agreement that it should be legal for many folk it sits low on the list of priorities for them, beneath pretty much any selfish concern they have.

It seems to me that the consensus in Ireland is pretty broad at this point. So much so that it goes beyond the traditional left-right schema, wasn't it McDowell who was talking about introducing civil partnership in the last Dáil?

 

[broken arm]

read a little further down that article.....'However, the survey, commissioned by the Gay and Lesbian Network , also found that only 51% percent of people support the concept of gay marriage.'

Now I know a majority is a majority, but i think it would be very tight if it came to a referendum lets say.

are you open to the suggestion that neither of us actually know what way it would go and we probably just use our perceptions/prejudices to make an assumption on what way it would go?

 

[ratmonkey]

are you suggesting they rigged the election?

Yes. Gerrymandering.

 

[Pedronimus]

are you open to the suggestion that neither of us actually know what way it would go and we probably just use our perceptions/prejudices to make an assumption on what way it would go?

I'd guess/hope it would probably pass, but not in any way overwhelmingly.

 

[jane]

I think his point was that while there's overwhelming agreement that it should be legal for many folk it sits low on the list of priorities for them, beneath pretty much any selfish concern they have.

It seems to me that the consensus in Ireland is pretty broad at this point. So much so that it goes beyond the traditional left-right schema, wasn't it McDowell who was talking about introducing civil partnership in the last Dáil?

That's my point, though. It isn't very high on people's priorities, not enough to write a letter. But it seems that opposition to it is *also* quite a low priority, which is also a good thing. There will always be extremes, but in the last 15 years, the difference in the general climate as far as sexuality goes is absolutely staggering. To go from homosexuality being illegal until 1993 to the way things are now, where gay marriage is even on the agenda at all is absolutely huge.

Yes, there is still a lot of homophobia, and yes there is still going to be an extreme faction who will stand around with placards going, "Down with this sort of thing", but the point I was trying to make was that people don't write letters about something that they don't feel all that strongly about -- but it is the very indifference that is fairly positive. The attitude seems to be -- for a lot of people -- "None of my business what them lot get up to", which is pretty much a tacit acceptance of gay relationships. They don't need to approve with any sort of zeal. I don't think anyone who isn't an equality advocate expects everyone to join a cause, it's probably enough that when the issue is brought to the table, the government can see that there's a small opposition, a majority who don't care one way or the other, and then a group of people for whom legalisation would mean a huge step forward.

Again, though, they probably won't pass it for any reason of a social revolution, just for the sake of EU practicality. It will probably come under the same shit that makes them required to recognise marriages that are valid in other EU states. My point was, though, it's probably not going to be a huge opposition issue because it's no longer quite as emotive as it would have been maybe ten years ago. I think the fact that it's not even necessarily seen as a left-right issue anymore is a massive step in the right direction.

What isn't a step in the right direction is pretty much everything else this government fucking does.

 

[Pedronimus]

The overwhelming support is generally that people don't give as much of a shit as they used to about who marries whom. Talk about semantics!

In that case, I overwhelmingly support your opinion.

It is possible to have a government different from the one you have now, but not if you go around acting all defeated and pretending that the Fianna-Fail weariness is anything like an excuse.

I just can't believe the level of denial even on this board. Sometimes I forget how conservative Thumped really is.

I'm not sure what you are getting at with all this? Who is in denial about what?

 

[jane]

In that case, I overwhelmingly support your opinion.

I'm not sure what you are getting at with all this? Who is in denial about what?

There's a sense of defeatedness, denial about having any power to change things. Yes, you need a critical mass to change the way shit is, and in a country where a lot of people seem to vote based on family tradition more than policy or whatever, that's not going to be easy.

But there's a huge lapsing into semantics, then offering excuses not to do anything. This 'better the devil you know' attitude that people seem to have is very conservative.