Bertie Ahern. (3 Viewers)

[jane]

I was the one originally being referred to as Hitler (and Stalin), I think he was carrying on that as a joke.

Some people agreed with you, in fact I agreed with alot(maybe most) of your points in this thread.

Stop taking every difference of opinion as a personal sleight or bullying.

I didn't accuse anyone of bullying. I said something that I presumed to be fact, based on the number of threads we've had where people are very unwilling to accept a broader or more liberal perspective, or to respect the experiences of others. We've had threads on racism where people lapse into the same old apologist rhetoric, threads on feminism (and look where those go!), homophobia, etc. There're a lot of very conservative, narrow opinions on here. People got really offended and had a go at me.

I was pointing out what I saw and it was in no way personal, but it resulted in some nasty schoolyard sniping. Not from you, petethedrummer. These snipes and my responses to them frequently are followed up by the Elder Statesmen of Thumped posting advice for me on how I could be less of a shit-stirrer and more of a nice, obedient girl.

There are differences of opinion and I do respect those, but what I don't respect are insults which are then defined as 'differing opinions' which apparently I'm then supposed to 'respect'.

 

[Pedronimus]

i dunno, probably something to do with your avatar

I changed my avatar after Goff calling me hitler. I'll put Yngwie back up soon.

 

[Pedronimus]

We've had threads on racism where people lapse into the same old apologist rhetoric, threads on feminism (and look where those go!), homophobia, etc. There're a lot of very conservative, narrow opinions on here. People got really offended and had a go at me.

You do tend to post in the more argumentative/emotive threads, more so than some of the other high posters. So you are probably gonna suffer more than the 1 line responders or the youtube link posters.

I was pointing out what I saw and it was in no way personal, but it resulted in some nasty schoolyard sniping. Not from you, petethedrummer.

I know you weren't refferring to me. I also got called Hitler, but i realise now that Goff doesn't know me from Adam. And if he did, he probably would know the intention in my post. So i'm not so annoyed about it.

I could be less of a shit-stirrer and more of a nice, obedient girl.

I really think you sell yourself and the other members of thumped short with statements like that. The 2 people I've seen get personal with you (Janer & Mormon Mailer is it?), you seemed more than capable of handling. And on those occasions you were defended by other members. And if thumped is a bastion of sexism homophobia, conservatism then you are more pessimistic about the public at large than I am.

 

[broken arm]

I changed my avatar after Goff calling me hitler. I'll put Yngwie back up soon.

ha ha. i normally have avatars turned off.

 

[killy kill]

Deadly thread. It's making me think lots. My 100p:

S'mad, I just finished watching All the Presidents Men (after about 4 gos, falling asleep each time. I'm crap at films).

I felt so cross at the end of it.
I was thinkin AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGHGHGHGHGHG (really) I HATE that so many people have their self-esteem and their future prospects ruined by being sent to prison for the most stupid, silly, minor offences. .

Ah, G.Gordon Liddy did well for himself after his stretch

I AM America!

 

[snakybus]

I didn't accuse anyone of bullying. I said something that I presumed to be fact, based on the number of threads we've had where people are very unwilling to accept a broader or more liberal perspective, or to respect the experiences of others. We've had threads on racism where people lapse into the same old apologist rhetoric, threads on feminism (and look where those go!), homophobia, etc. There're a lot of very conservative, narrow opinions on here. People got really offended and had a go at me.

I was pointing out what I saw and it was in no way personal, but it resulted in some nasty schoolyard sniping. Not from you, petethedrummer. These snipes and my responses to them frequently are followed up by the Elder Statesmen of Thumped posting advice for me on how I could be less of a shit-stirrer and more of a nice, obedient girl.

There are differences of opinion and I do respect those, but what I don't respect are insults which are then defined as 'differing opinions' which apparently I'm then supposed to 'respect'.

Jane, we are not in a schoolyard and I am not an "Elder Statesman" of anything. I'm not talking down to you; I regard you as an equal. If you can't take someone gently criticising your debating style, and pulling you up on fair points, then that's fine. But playing the victim is not going to work with me, though I applaud you for your guile: it'll probably work with other people listening in. By the way, should I point out that telling me I'm "out of line" for making a joke could be regarded as you telling me how to behave, to not shit stir, and to be like a nice little boy? I think you may have spotted that yourself, actually. To that, I say: you're not the boss of me. If you don't see the humour in my comparison with Hitler (which was a reference to what Pete the Drummer said earlier, and I think he saw this immediately), then there's nothing I can do about that. Really. Though I do apologise if I hurt your feelings. I just want people to play fair.

I think, actually, the contrary about what you said is true. People are willing to accept a different perspective on this board. I see opinions changing all the time. People accept some of your opinions and not others: that's normal. That's the natue of debate. It's just when you fold your arms and go "you caveman Irish fucks, whaddafuck do you know", that I feel affronted, as an Irish person. See, those are my feelings, and I'm protective over them. But I'd imagine I might speak for others as well.

 

[snakybus]

Snaky, when do I ever have people on my side? I meant it. If people give up because they don't think change is possible, that's not very open-minded, is it?

I kind of assumed that people on here couldn't be too afraid of being seen as conservative, since the 'too cool to care' attitude is pretty prevalent. Like jokingly comparing someone to Hitler as a follow-up to a passive-aggressive comment instead of just coming out with what you have to say. That's pretty undignified.

Jane, I would consider undignified to be a compliment, actually. And I'm fairly sure you have plenty of people on your side. I'm on your side. Jesus is on your side. Me and Jesus.

 

[billygannon]

It should be noted that Ireland has one of the most representative democracies in the world.
The parliament member to citizen ratio is incredibly low - there are 166 seats in Dail Eireann which is enormous when you consider Ireland has a population of 4 to 4 and a half million people.
Proportional Representation also gives people the opportunity to have the candidates they truly want to represent them in parliament.
Therefore Dail Eireann and the politicians sitting in it are a very fair reflection on the political viewpoint of the voting citizens in Ireland.

From my perspective the reason why Fianna Fail are in government is simply because they are a network of professional politicians who understand how to operate within the political frameworks in Ireland.
The vast majority of Irish voters are less concerned with overarching issues such as gay marraige and are more concerned with locally-based issues such as retaining a local hospital or ensuring there is employment in their area.
I believe that many Irish people don't even vote for the party - they vote for the individual - because they feel that individual does a good job for their local area. Being part of Fianna Fail gives that politician a wide network of contacts who will help them achieve what they need to achieve for their community.

I don't see Fianna Fail or Fine Gael as being actual political parties with a core set of political beliefs. They're almost like governmental consultant agencies competing for business every election. Apparently Fianna Fail are a left-wing party - which is just daft.
Parties that do have a central political belief don't fair as well because it can often be difficult to make these beliefs relevant to local issues.
A campaign promise to legalise gay marraige it would be seen as largely irrelevant to some guy living in Offaly who knows his local factory could close down in a couple of months. He'll vote for that party making this promise of gay marraige if they can categorically confirm that they will keep this factory open. I know this is a simplistic view on it - and I know people do take more than this in to consideration. But the fact there are several rather powerful independents who have campaigned on specific issues indicates that local issues are the overarching concern for Irish voters.

It's meant that Irish governmental politics has been largely reactive rather than being proactive. For instance the 10% corporation tax move in 1994 was less a grand political decision and more of a sound business decision. When the government is faced with an ethical or conceptual decision such as divorce or abortion, they'll simply have a referendum - that way they don't actually have to have a policy on it. They know these issues are devisive. By concealing their opinions on these issues, they can then give promises around practical issues that can be solved by the mechanics of government.

With all this in mind, Bertie Ahern is the archetypal Irish politician. We don't know his actual views on many ethical issues. But he's good at working the system. He'll shake the hands that need to be shaken. He'll put in a good word here or there. And then the local town in Westmeath will get that grant they need.
But if you ask him what to do about the 13 year old girl who became pregnant because her uncle raped her - well... that's outside the scope of what he does.

I know this happens in other countries - but in Ireland this clientalism and the localisation of national politics is quite extreme. It is simply because Ireland is a small, neutral country.

 

[Pantone247]

oh dear, where did it all go Pete Tong on this thread? I feel like the animals at the end of Animal Farm, looking in at the pigs arguing with the famers, and the more I look I realise the pigs are looking more and more like the farmers and the farmers? The farmers are looking more like the pigs...

 

[nofunchee]

A campaign promise to legalise gay marraige it would be seen as largely irrelevant to some guy living in Offaly who knows his local factory could close down in a couple of months. He'll vote for that party making this promise of gay marraige if they can categorically confirm that they will keep this factory open.

jaysus, if any politicians were fighting to keep any of the factories i've worked in open, i'd put an end to their careers at all costs.

seriously buh, this jobs for jobs sake business. i know people need money to put food on the table and pay the bills and all that but sometimes i find it all a bit depressing. i mean there was a big hoo haa down in callan, co. kilkenny recently when the planning authority denied planning permission to tesco to locate a massive store there.basically it was some fg politician going on about it being the only thing that was gonna rejuvenate the town, going on about the 100 jobs it would create.

what he wasn't saying was that most of these jobs would be shit jobs, that all the jobs involved working for the man, that local businesses would probably be decimated, and that tesco are cunts. they were on about competing with other towns in the area as a place for people to shop. the more consumerism and economic growth are assumed to be the only solution to unemployment the less inclined i'm gonna be to vote for any of those cunts.

from an article in the kilkenny people last week:

If Tesco does come to Callan it may affect businesses but hopefully it will have the opposite affect and bring people to the town, only time will tell, but for the majority it’s about creating jobs, better shopping facilities and less travelling to Kilkenny and Clonmel for their grocery shopping.

yeah right.

 

[Raudi Raus Schinkel]

"If Tesco does come to Callan it may affect businesses but hopefully it will have the opposite affect and bring people to the town, only time will tell, but for the majority it’s about creating jobs, better shopping facilities and less travelling to Kilkenny and Clonmel for their grocery shopping."

that would be a real shame, Callan is a lovely town, and what I liked about it is all the independent traders, their bookmaker just said bookmaker, not Paddy Power, etc.

Jobs are jobs tho, you need one, it's nice to get one, can't be imposing our middle class values on what makes a good job, you have responsibilites, you'd like the choice of a tesco job or no job at all. the worlds the same over in that regard.

 

[billygannon]

oh dear, where did it all go Pete Tong on this thread? I feel like the animals at the end of Animal Farm, looking in at the pigs arguing with the famers, and the more I look I realise the pigs are looking more and more like the farmers and the farmers? The farmers are looking more like the pigs...

I should just delete it. I wish I could delete Bertie Ahern.

 

[snakybus]

oh dear, where did it all go Pete Tong on this thread? I feel like the animals at the end of Animal Farm, looking in at the pigs arguing with the famers, and the more I look I realise the pigs are looking more and more like the farmers and the farmers? The farmers are looking more like the pigs...

You could do with a dose a farm life, boy, make a man outta yeh!

....by the way, which "version" of Animal Farm are we talking about here?

 

[nofunchee]

Jobs are jobs tho, you need one, it's nice to get one, can't be imposing our middle class values on what makes a good job, you have responsibilites, you'd like the choice of a tesco job or no job at all. the worlds the same over in that regard.

ah yeah, that's a fair criticism. and i am a middle-class cunt who has options or whatever. BUT it pisses me off when business lobbyists and politicians are deciding what jobs, working conditions, and wages people should have. my point is that there's very few alternatives being looked at.

and anyway, stacking shelves in tesco or on a production line in a factory is a shit job. you should get compensated for monotony-related injuries.

fuck tesco, apparently kilkenny is the only county in ireland without one. brits out! how quickly we forget.

 

[Pedronimus]

ah yeah, that's a fair criticism. and i am a middle-class cunt who has options or whatever. BUT it pisses me off when business lobbyists and politicians are deciding what jobs, working conditions, and wages people should have. my point is that there's very few alternatives being looked at.

Its easy to sell the notion to voters. 'I got tesco here, 100 jobs were created and your groceries are cheaper, aren't I great?'.

Not so easy to sell 'I opposed Tesco here. Govt didn't have to subsidise building the building of their premises', profits stayed in the town, local shops weren't closed down, our towns aren't homogenous, in the long run the town is probably better off.'

The notion that towns and villages are better off without Tescos everywhere is only recently becoming apparent to voters in England. Who are now I believe hoping for the return of local shops. We're probably 10 years or so odd years behind them in this regard.

 

[broken arm]

Its easy to sell the notion to voters. 'I got tesco here, 100 jobs were created and your groceries are cheaper, aren't I great?'.

you're right but it's not so much about the complicated impacts Tesco may or may not have on local economies but the the fact narrow minded politicians sell short young people in terms of skills development, social mobility and aspirations by pinning regeneration on jobs in Tesco. (not that retail or service sector jobs are inherently bad)

 

[Janer]

I really think you sell yourself and the other members of thumped short with statements like that. The 2 people I've seen get personal with you (Janer & Mormon Mailer is it?), you seemed more than capable of handling.

She used horrible words on me but now she's settled down as a wife she's grand.

 

[jane]

I would like to take this opportunity to apologise unreservedly to the people of Ireland and to thank you all for seeing me as an 'equal'.

I was shamefully unaware of this, having previously been under the impression that being warned against having anything but a positive opinion about everything on this green isle was something else altogether. But now I know that being an 'equal' means being uncritical of the government I, too, live under and have done for nigh on a decade. Being equal means shutting up and knowing my place, lest the you-weren't-born-here trump card be played.

You will be pleased to know that I have been sent for re-education, and now blindly adore everything about this country, especially the government, who are fren.

I look forward to the day when I receive my notification that I am entitled to have something other than a positive opinion about the country in which I live. Not, of course, so that I may let fly with invective, but for its symbolic value to me.

If anyone needs me, I'll be touching myself with a tricolour.

 

[Goff]

If anyone needs me, I'll be touching myself with a tricolour.

So long as you're not touching your lady bits, that's acceptable. Otherwise, get thee to a nunnery where they'll bate it out of ye. You're not allowed denigrate the tricolour with such womanly parts.

Unless the tricolour was French, then it's accepted, nay, required.

 

[therealjohnny]

Unless the tricolour was French,

I think I'll compose a poem, or perhaps a song for Eurovision with this title

The tricolour was French (The dream is over)