why are there so many threads started by men on thumped about how shit women are? (1 Viewer)

[jane]

The idea that I am some norm-zombie incapable of seeing beyond my own blissful conformity is so patronising and simplistic that it's unreal. It's the kind of point that makes me bypass these threads as pointless, endless exchanges of essays where nobody changes their mind about anything.

I'm out.

Ro, where did anyone actually say this?

This is the Phantom Feminism I was talking about.

I'm sorry you think you're a norm zombie. It must be very boring for you, eating the same brains, day in, day out.

 

[CitySickness]

Not so, mon frere. Maleness has always been regarded as a societal norm, despite all statistical evidence to the contrary.

Touché, ma soeur. I agree to a certain extent, but you could argue that maleness is a norm in certain spheres of life (traditionally public), femaleness a norm in others (traditionally private). Overall though, I don't think anybody would claim to assume to know whether the Mystery Person behind Curtain A is male or female, without cues to suggest either way. Or maybe I'm just saying that because I view everything through the warped lens of my cock-eye.

Sorry about the snarkiness, by the way. I really need to cut down on that.

No probs; I need to cut down on the hamfisted self-deprecation.

 

[Corey]

Well. That's that.

Let's get naked everybody.

 

[jane]

Well. That's that.

Let's get naked everybody.

Get naked?

 

[Corey]

Get naked?

God i love feminists.

 

[jane]

Touché, ma soeur. I agree to a certain extent, but you could argue that maleness is a norm in certain spheres of life (traditionally public), femaleness a norm in others (traditionally private). Overall though, I don't think anybody would claim to assume to know whether the Mystery Person behind Curtain A is male or female, without cues to suggest either way. Or maybe I'm just saying that because I view everything through the warped lens of my cock-eye.

I think this is the point, though, that when we hear 'norms' we think of public spheres, the corridors of power, etc. And when we think 'domestic', we assume female. Saying to a woman, "You're neglecting the home when you go to work," is damaging and rude, and saying to a man, "What kind of man are you, can't build a shed?"

It kind of goes back to my original point, which is that gender assumptions are shit. Assuming that neglect of domestic duties undermines one's feminine value also assumes that domestic roles are feminine, and thus, that a guy doing the hoovering is feminised, and thus has had his masculinity compromised.

 

[theweeyin]

Does this help?

 

[CitySickness]

I think this is the point, though, that when we hear 'norms' we think of public spheres, the corridors of power, etc. And when we think 'domestic', we assume female. Saying to a woman, "You're neglecting the home when you go to work," is damaging and rude, and saying to a man, "What kind of man are you, can't build a shed?"

This is why I said "traditionally" - I'm not championing those normative assumptions, just questioning the idea of maleness being society's overall default setting.

It kind of goes back to my original point, which is that gender assumptions are shit. Assuming that neglect of domestic duties undermines one's feminine value also assumes that domestic roles are feminine, and thus, that a guy doing the hoovering is feminised, and thus has had his masculinity compromised.

And this goes back to my earlier endorsement for anyone who actually feels their masculinity is compromised because they hoovered the mank off the stairs: grow some balls.

 

[jane]

This is why I said "traditionally" - I'm not championing those normative assumptions, just questioning the idea of maleness being society's overall default setting.



And this goes back to my earlier endorsement for anyone who actually feels their masculinity is compromised because they hoovered the mank off the stairs: grow some balls.

Basically, yeah. 'Norms' change with context.

It's a pain in the arse when people get that "Good, for a girl" thing going and it's an equal pain in the arse when people are like, "Oh, ha ha, look, a man doing housework!" and do that limp-wrist thing. Jaysis.

My favourite (read: not my favourite) is when I'll be having a conversation with someone and blah blah blah, everything is going normally and fine, and then someone makes a rotten comment about 'feminists', and I'm like, "Uh, I'm definitely a feminist" and they're like, "Really? I couldn't tell. You seem so...normal." And I'm like, "Oh, yeah, well, I shaved my beard this morning." Because hi, that person's understanding of feminism is fucked the fuck up. What did they expect?

 

[It Will Never Last]

And I'm like, "Oh, yeah, well, I shaved my beard this morning."

You should throw your support behind this

 

[jane]

Thanks, cries himself to sleep.

You can count me in as an honourary member of your beard advocacy group. I like beards. In fact, I don't even give a crap if a woman has a beard. Her beard, her business (for real, like). Being an admirer of the modern dude, I do like beards. I most admire the full beard, and with length relative to age (longer beards look best on older dudes, and the older the dude, the longer the beard he can get away with).

Here's to Team Beard!

 

[Jerry Twig]

As a girl who has attempted on occasion to express an opinion in "No Way Referee" I'll tell ya it's not a very friendly place. .

I never said it was a friendly place! It's bitter no matter who you are.

Do come back and meet the likes of Skinnerchinner, for whom the rest of Thumped holds no equal.

 

[jane]

I never said it was a friendly place! It's bitter no matter who you are.

Do come back and meet the likes of Skinnerchinner, for whom the rest of Thumped holds no equal.

I reckon you'd get a friendlier welcome in a thread about shoes than any woman would get in the football forum.

 

[Jerry Twig]

I reckon you'd get a friendlier welcome in a thread about shoes than any woman would get in the football forum.

How is it that you are so cocksure about everything?

 

[Squiggle]

I never said it was a friendly place! It's bitter no matter who you are.

Do come back and meet the likes of Skinnerchinner, for whom the rest of Thumped holds no equal.

That is true, I've noticed that a lot of the guys get a tough time in there too, but at least the basis for that is supporting the 'wrong' team as opposed to being a member of the 'wrong' gender team.

I reckon you'd get a friendlier welcome in a thread about shoes than any woman would get in the football forum.

Didn't at least one guy actually post some questions (and receive polite answers) in the shoe thread... or did I imagine that? I have looked at it once or twice.

That said, the "serious tampon thread" got a bit unfriendly towards males at one stage... strangely the mooncup thread was more friendly.

 

[jane]

How is it that you are so cocksure about everything?

I was pointing out that you would probably have no trouble in a shopping thread. I woudln't make sarky comments, and I can't think of anyone who would. And if someone did make a sarky nasty comment, you can be fairly sure that someone else would challenge it. The football forum, however, is seen as a place where if you open your mouth, you're expected to tolerate casual sexism because sure, that's what you get for entering a male-dominated environment. Which shouldn't be the case.

 

[jane]

That is true, I've noticed that a lot of the guys get a tough time in there too, but at least the basis for that is supporting the 'wrong' team as opposed to being a member of the 'wrong' gender team.




Didn't at least one guy actually post some questions (and receive polite answers) in the shoe thread... or did I imagine that? I have looked at it once or twice.

That said, the "serious tampon thread" got a bit unfriendly towards males at one stage... strangely the mooncup thread was more friendly.

I haven't seen much of the shoe thread because it just reminds me that I can't afford shoes. And even though I own lots of them, I'm not really 'into' shoes as much as I am other kinds of clothes, or cosmetic products. But I'm sure there would be -- we have had many conversations on Thumped about how shit the selection of men's clothes is in Dublin.

As for the 'serious tampon thread', I don't remember, but hey, that doesn't mean no one said anything unpleasant. And I'm not justifying or excusing nasty comments about dudes, but there is a tendency to view women's periods and the paraphernalia as some sort of weird mystical spectacle, worthy of jokes and comments about its apparent weirdness, when we spend about 25% of our adult lives in menses.

But the point isn't about hauling up the things that women have said on Thumped about men and using them to undermine any right women have to dignity and respect. Because that assumes that all women are responsible for everything any other woman says. And to be honest, as much as I don't agree with denigrating men any more than I do women, more men do have public power in this world, and most women do not have as much power (or at least fewer women have public power). That is a fact. There is no gender equality. There may be equality in people's interpersonal relationships, even at a small scale in a working relationship, but on the whole, the average woman is at a disadvantage in the public sphere, and denigrating someone with less power is more damaging and more threatening than denigrating someone who has more power. I'm not saying that either is right, or that one is more wrong. They are both wrong, it's just that one is more damaging than the other to someone's public reputation.

Women are expected to add all kinds of qualifiers to statements in order to prove validity. Men rarely are. My posts, especially in relation to gender issues, are long out of necessity. If I just make short statments (see Be The Hokey's comment above), I'm almost always asked to explain myself, and picked at and picked at, and constantly read with a negative, fault-finding eye, accused of shit I didn't say (see Ro's post), de-repped by people who, rather than acknowledge that sexism exists and damages women's lives (as well as men's), blame feminists for somehow perpetuating it, even inventing it.

It's nuts. And Thumped, for all its lofty lefty ideals, is only friendly toward women to the extent that we know our place.

 

[Jerry Twig]

I was pointing out that you would probably have no trouble in a shopping thread. I woudln't make sarky comments, and I can't think of anyone who would. And if someone did make a sarky nasty comment, you can be fairly sure that someone else would challenge it. The football forum, however, is seen as a place where if you open your mouth, you're expected to tolerate casual sexism because sure, that's what you get for entering a male-dominated environment. Which shouldn't be the case.

First of all, I never said I expected to have trouble in the shopping thread. What I find objectionable is that it is entitled 'Women here..' or whatever condescending nonsense is appended to it.
Secondly, your statement about the football forum tolerating casual sexism is just complete bullshit. It's completely unsubstantiated and as unwarranted a generalization as any others in this thread. If you got stick there it's because you're talking out of your arse about football. Which should be the case.

 

[Bellatrix]

The idea that I am some norm-zombie incapable of seeing beyond my own blissful conformity is so patronising and simplistic that it's unreal. It's the kind of point that makes me bypass these threads as pointless, endless exchanges of essays where nobody changes their mind about anything.

I'm out.

That is not what I meant at all (Prufrock alert). Seriously.

Just because your standpoint is shaped (to a certain extent) by a number of factors like race, ethnicity, class, gender, sexuality and so on, doesn't mean that you can't contemplate or (again, to a certain extent) understand other standpoints.

In other news, I posted on the No Way, Referee! forum a bit during the World Cup. It was fine.

 

[jane]

First of all, I never said I expected to have trouble in the shopping thread. What I find objectionable is that it is entitled 'Women here..' or whatever condescending nonsense is appended to it.
Secondly, your statement about the football forum tolerating casual sexism is just complete bullshit. It's completely unsubstantiated and as unwarranted a generalization as any others in this thread. If you got stick there it's because you're talking out of your arse about football. Which should be the case.

Wow, there's really no need for your level of hostility. I'm doing my best to discuss an emotive issue sensitively, but you're the one who's cocksure, and I've said nothing to you, or to anyone on here that warrants that kind of nasty response.

And anyway, so it's not only okay but encouraged for people to make casually sexist comments for asking a question about football? Seriously? Wow. That's....amazing.

This is just ridiculous. It's only unsubstantiated because you want me to dig up every single thread, wheras your argument is based entirely on your 100% sure assumption that I was allegedly 'talking out my arse' about football, which you don't have to substantiate for some reason or another. So your argument is not only unnecessarily hostile, it's a pretty weak argument in general.

If you are going to object to something, please quote specific examples (in their contexts) and explain, without resorting to sweeping generalisations, what exactly you are upset about. It's amazing that you don't even recognise what you're doing.