Why men behave like pigs (1 Viewer)

Cormcolash

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And is nothing to do with some Men's Rights bollocks, it's because it has a real outcome on people. If you say "see them lads over there? Total cunts.", you're doing two things. You're saying "those lads over there are total cunts". And you're also saying "I'm in an outgroup, and we're *not* a total cunts". That's how these statements work.
This is very pertinent. On a few occasions recently, I've been walking down the road and there's been a group of young lads hanging around, wearing tracksuits kind of lads so you kind of take a look at them and go "Oh what are these pricks up to?".
Then I'd be walking past them and it turns out one of them has a skateboard and is showing it to the others and they are all basically going "Oh this is cool shit come on we head up to the ramps in the park". Another group are actually sticking up signs near bins and things that say "stop littering our community, throw your rubbish in the bin". Another group were in a takeaway and as they were leaving they went around all the empty tables that people had left rubbish and stuff on and put the rubbish in the bin, then when they got outside they helped some oul lad reattach the chain to his bike cause it had just come off right there.
I feel like I'm starting to see this a bit more often, which is cool.
At the same time though I still see some groups of lads who look like they're up to acting the bollox and guess what, are indeed acting the bollox.
So like you can see how the stereotype comes to be there, and also how it can stigmatise young people too. All these groups I saw, I can only imagine if a Guard walked past them he'd be an absolute prick to all of them without exception even if he didn't have a reason to be.
It really highlights how bullshit generalisations tend to be.
 

shidheat

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i normally see the kids pulling mad wheelies on oversized mountain bikes and think about how cool that is. then the other day i saw a bunch of them, but a single one on a clearly-out-of-place electric bike, and in that instance i realized that particular group were clearly riding stolen bikes, and were possibly dangerous. it's a tough one alright. i want to be happy for them but some groups of kids are just going to batter you.
 

sleepy

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Is there not a bit of a shift in all that lately?
My brother is in his mid 20s and is very honest and open with his friends. The whole group of them are the same way. They’re affectionate with each other, as in hugs all around.
They’re also able to call each other out on their bullshit or when they’re acting like an asshole, which can happen.
These are all ghetto kids who’ve seen the worst there is to see, so I don’t know if that’s something in their favour or not.
I'm 38 and me and my friends would be a bit like this. Minus the hugging, we grew up in the 80s so it's not something we'd do spontaneously or voluntarily. But a fair few of us would would have various issues around mental health etc but we've been fairly open with each other about it. Personally speaking, I've been for counselling twice and what my mates will think about it has never been a worry for me. The bigger issue for me was having to admit to myself that I'd gotten to the stage where I needed it.
Interestingly enough, I'd have a few older friends from work, guys aged 45+ with whom this isn't spoken of at all and that blokeyness nonsense is still there
 

sleepy

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Its not only diverting attention to be like "lets take gender, skin color, class out of the equation" or "sure women experience that but men also", its generally ignoring the greater structural issues which feed into certain groups experiencing disproportionate levels of violence/abuse/issues. When you say "its derivative to say "x general statement" instead of looking at the behaviour", guess what, those structures are what support and create that behaviour in the first place.
Yeah, I think this is really true.
Going back to why this thread was started. I think the reason that some guys, especially the ones in Jill's and Riaths pub ,act like absolute shitheads is out of a sense of total entitlement. They see women as being beneath them and there's a whole macho bullshit alpha male thing going on with them.
Ironically enough, every year around International Women's Day, you hear the same thing from MRA types about "but what about men's issues? Men's mental health? Male victims of domestic violence?" But I think the biggest barriers to sorting these issues out are the type of guys that Jill and Riath are talking about but for some reason we're always hearing the same cry of "fucking feminists!!"
 

sleepy

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I’m sticking with my “it’s getting better” theory.
There’s a lad that worked for us for a few years, I’ll call him Shane.
Shane was the local Hurling and Rugby star in the making, who received a lot of attention from women ages 18-50+.
He was disgusted by some of the guys in the bar and how they were with us.
There was a creepy fucker that kept “accidentally” brushing off my chest whenever I was working that end of the bar. He’s blind in one eye so I was giving him the benefit of the doubt but after 3 times, it’s not an accident.
Shane stood in front of me any time the creep was near saying “He wont like my chest as much as yours” and made sure I was ok for the rest of the night.

The rescuing goes both ways though. I heard screaming one night and people chanting “pink pussy”. Ran down to see what was happening and he was almost cowering from a gang of women aged 45-60 looking for a “Shane Special” cocktail.
He’s really close to his sister and collects her and her friends from parties still, to make sure everyone gets home ok.

I love that kid, he’s my surrogate lil brother. He knew I’d been going through a rough patch the last while and texts to make sure I’m ok and to talk.

I’m off on a tangent here and not making much sense.
The kids are going to figure this shitshow out for us.
I do think it's getting better over all too. I can see in my own kids school they're already teaching mindfulness.
Also, my 2 kids were playing a little while ago. My son was starting to get frustrated with the game. My 5 year old daughter could see this and started saying to him "I can see you're getting angry, I think you need to go work on your breathing." Part of me thinks she was doing it to wind him up but I did think it showed a lot more emotional intelligence than I'd have
 

sleepy

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On the contrary, I think EXACTLY what we need is men shouldering some of the burden of talking to and about other men. As you said, there are plently of women who are happy to and want to be given the space to speak for themselves, but men do need to take on the responsibility of talking to and challenging eachother.

Because so often in these situations men do not call out other men, they aren't the dissenting voice in a locker room conversation, and they don't have the hard conversations about consent with their peers. its very easy for us all to overlook comments in passing as comments, and say nothing. For my money its in saying the hard thing that men could throw their weight.

Its related, tangentially, though not exactly what we're talking about but it pissed me off here recently enough in the last few months when I read what I percieved as a pretty gross transphobic comment, and everyone skirted on by it.

edited for all the spelling mistakes.
I'll put my hand up and admit that I need to get better at this. I don't meet or come in to contact with people who are that awful. So when I do I'm always kind of shocked and never have that good counter argument prepared
 

egg_

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So when I do I'm always kind of shocked and never have that good counter argument prepared
Arguments don't work for changing opinions*

You can't argue them out of their awfulness. Best you can hope for is to make people laugh at them them or to draw them out in such a way as to change how they see the world. Both v difficult.

*quoting my own band's lyrics FTW
 

nuke terrorist

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i have more empathy for people who are more disadvantaged than i am.
and almost none for people who misuse what power they over someone else.

whether it's related to gender, family, school, class, workplace, race, age etc.

i can give people who are damaged because of being in a subservient
position a lot of leeway and i'm prepared to engage with them mostly
on their terms.
i call this - meeting them 70% of the way.

but people in any position of power who are mistreating folks
don't deserve anything unless they take responsibility for their
actions and change their behaviour.

i know this isn't how life works -
and i'm lucky that i don't have to deal with this.
but i won't humour anyone who behaves this way.
if someone on a power trip disrespects me - i'll tell them.

this the crux of my posts on this thread.
 

mully

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I am in the middle of teaching a course on genetics and behaviour to undergrads. One of the main points I make is that generally it is very hard to say "This genetic profile gives you this behavioural profile" - i.e. there's no gay gene, no intelligence gene, no autism gene, no "being a prick" gene. But I immediately follow it up with the point that there are some obvious, reproducible and undeniable effects of genetics on behaviour. The number one predictor of violent behaviour in humans (and mammals more generally), more than anything, is the presence or absence of a Y chromosome. Culture, upbringing, nationality, class, etc. are drops in the ocean compared to it.
Great point

Which may also lead to the fact that:

(these stats are probably the same in most countries)

More men are in prison
Girls out perform boys in school
More boys fail to go on to college then girls
More men are expected to 'Man up'
More men commit suicide
Men kill more then women
Men dont live as long as women

Why?

I doubt anyone gives a shit in today's climate.

Men are bad is the mantra.
 

Jill Hives

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For the record, I never called men pigs nor did I start this thread. In many cases, I'd say previously I would have been considered, by most women, to be a "bad feminist" because I don't see things very black & white. I've had my fair share of abuse and assault because of the dynamics of our culture. I also grew up in a house where emotions weren't shared/shown and you were suppose to "shake it off" and "get over it and move on." However, over the years but I also have been lucky to live in cities where there was more of a discourse or at least awareness and although still bombarded, it was somehow 'manageable".

That said, the last six years in the countryside, this little microcosm, has changed me. For better or worse, I don't know. Was I better before or just unknowingly institutionalised thinking I was logically/academically above it? Or now, I finally see the big picture and it's like PTSD and I react at every little thing? All I do know is, I fear for humanity and I am glad I never had kids. People should just be nicer and more respectful of others and the world is NOT headed that way.
 

Jill Hives

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It's funny, I went on a date with a nice guy maybe in the first year of the pub. We were disgusting what we did and as soon as I said, "I work in a bar" he was like, "Oh, I don't ever date barmaids." I laughed and asked why. His response, "You'll see in a few years" and I totally get it now.
 

egg_

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For the record, I never called men pigs nor did I start this thread
For the record, I started this thread, and I gave it its title. I agree with a lot of @flashback's sentiment, and it really upsets me when I see men-as-a-group disparaged ... but ... well, it's only the clickbaity headline that says anything about pigs, there's nothing in the text of my posts that's anti-men AFAICS

Oh and FWIW I'm a man, and like @Jill Hives moving to the countryside changed how I saw a lot of things.
 

Jill Hives

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I can absolutely confirm this. You were, still are, a really lovable bunch of properly decent men.
I concur. Also, perhaps why in cities it seemed less daunting because I surrounded myself with decent people. Down here, I don't have that luxury. I get what comes through the door, not to say they are all disrespectful, sexist and racist but the percentage is high.
 

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