Why men behave like pigs (1 Viewer)

Lili Marlene

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It's a weird one, but it's also a real one.

Can't be showing weakness (or emotions at all actually), it's unmanly. Stiff upper lip, a real man doesn't complain, no one likes a whinger, people are so weak these days. back when men were men, blitz spirit etc.

Not gonna pretend I never said anything in that general ballpark.
 
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riath

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Is there not a bit of a shift in all that lately?
My brother is in his mid 20s and is very honest and open with his friends. The whole group of them are the same way. They’re affectionate with each other, as in hugs all around.
They’re also able to call each other out on their bullshit or when they’re acting like an asshole, which can happen.
These are all ghetto kids who’ve seen the worst there is to see, so I don’t know if that’s something in their favour or not.
 

Lili Marlene

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Yeah, apparently "kids these days" don't get the Breakfast Club because they all feel sorry for the principle and the groupings (jock/nerd/goth etc.) make no sense to them! They're all too anxious to leave the house though.
 

Squiggle

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Jeany Lili, can you hear yourself! Next you'll be calling them snowflakes as if that's an insult. Got your Trump2020 hat on order?

Yes, Riath, I think there is a change. My brothers are the same, different background. They're late 30s and early 40s.
 

Lili Marlene

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Jeany Lili, can you hear yourself! Next you'll be calling them snowflakes as if that's an insult. Got your Trump2020 hat on order.
I think you missed my point. I was trying to show that an entire civilization's worth of history says men should behave in a certain way and that these voices and pressures don't just disappear overnight.
 

7 - No tomorrow

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Is there not a bit of a shift in all that lately?
My brother is in his mid 20s and is very honest and open with his friends. The whole group of them are the same way. They’re affectionate with each other, as in hugs all around.
They’re also able to call each other out on their bullshit or when they’re acting like an asshole, which can happen.
These are all ghetto kids who’ve seen the worst there is to see, so I don’t know if that’s something in they’re favour or not.
I think so. I see it with my eldest nephew anyways.
People should talk about stuff that’s truly troubling. And I think more men are doing that.

That said, I think plenty of people are naturally stoic.
There’s always going to be a set of people – probably majority men – that don’t feel the need to talk about feelings or emotions very often. Like I’ll cry about a death or a serious loss, but while I know some things are sad, my head very quickly turns to how to address the situation practically - that's my catharsis.
I’ve always found the type of people that share their emotional state most often are often in the most mess; constantly examining their feelings and being in perpetual turmoil. Just my experience.
Like if we’re dating and you have multiple episodes of crying at 3 or 4am, we’re probably breaking up.
That behavior is toxic (for want of a better world) to my wellbeing, and there is someone better for you than me.

But it is heartening to know men who have talked to me about depression and addiction and loss – or feel they can. I make a point to talk through serious things that have happened to people I care about; men need real support from other men in marriage breakups for sure.
Gay dudes are great at this. A great balance of being open, supportive and now-what-you-gonna-do-about-it.

But if you need support cos you’re arguing with your boss, or your sister’s being a bitch, then I think you need to strike a balance between resilience and reaching out.

The idea that women have this all figured out and men haven’t a notion seems off the mark to me. I think we could both learn from each other.



ETA - shit that was long. Y'all got me monologuing

Tl;dr
I suppose everyone finds their own emotional balance and you don’t limit others finding theirs.
 

Squiggle

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It's endemic, but that doesn't make it hard to change, or to refuse to participate. Like _egg implied, if you reduce someone else to an abstract concept you can easily harm them. If you keep hold of the sameness it's more difficult.
 

Squiggle

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The idea that women have this all figured out and men haven’t a notion seems off the mark to me. I think we could both learn from each other.
Totally agree! And that was the point I was trying to make in earlier essays.

Women have their own demons to deal with, even without having to deal with the fallout of toxic masculinity. And being a teen, or a child, is hard enough without being someone else's whipping boy. "Kids these days!" and similar dehumanizing and dismissive statements are divisive and harm us as a society. Manufactured conflict everywhere and with everyone.
 

hermie

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Is there not a bit of a shift in all that lately?
My brother is in his mid 20s and is very honest and open with his friends. The whole group of them are the same way. They’re affectionate with each other, as in hugs all around.
They’re also able to call each other out on their bullshit or when they’re acting like an asshole, which can happen.
These are all ghetto kids who’ve seen the worst there is to see, so I don’t know if that’s something in their favour or not.
I think our group of lads were a bit like that (@ernesto can either confirm or deny this), apart from being ghetto kids! But it was much commented upon by those on the outside looking in and not always in a positive light. Sure you and your mates are basically wimmin. I remember a friend of a friend at a house party of mine one time going "you have really nice friends. Very non-sexually threatening". I remember being in fits of laughter, as if that's any kind of distinction at all. I even wondered was she having a go. But no, it just was.
 

Lili Marlene

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Totally agree! And that was the point I was trying to make in earlier essays.

Women have their own demons to deal with, even without having to deal with the fallout of toxic masculinity. And being a teen, or a child, is hard enough without being someone else's whipping boy. "Kids these days!" and similar dehumanizing and dismissive statements are divisive and harm us as a society. Manufactured conflict everywhere and with everyone.
HEYYYYY, hold on, is that what pissed you off? I was kidding using that phrase! I could have just said "Generation Z" but kids these days was funnier. They literally suffer from a lot more anxiety. Or possibly report it more because they're less repressed about these things, I don't know:

 

riath

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I think our group of lads were a bit like that (@ernesto can either confirm or deny this), apart from being ghetto kids!
Yep from the guys I know, I’d agree with you.
Maybe it’s the right people gravitate to each other, or it just organically developed that way?
My male friends were the same way as teenagers with us, but I figured it was because they saw the shit we put up with.
 

Squiggle

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I think our group of lads were a bit like that (@ernesto can either confirm or deny this), apart from being ghetto kids! But it was much commented upon by those on the outside looking in and not always in a positive light. Sure you and your mates are basically wimmin. I remember a friend of a friend at a house party of mine one time going "you have really nice friends. Very non-sexually threatening". I remember being in fits of laughter, as if that's any kind of distinction at all. I even wondered was she having a go. But no, it just was.
I can absolutely confirm this. You were, still are, a really lovable bunch of properly decent men.
 

Squiggle

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Basically in my experience of country pub situations, men's disrespect towards women has nothing to do with individual women at all. The men's audience is other men - essentially the pub is the stage on which they perform for each other. Individual women, and "women" in the abstract, are pantomime villains, and the men in a group gain status in the group by scoring points against the villain...
...Their selves in the game aren't their authentic selves, but the game is the backbone of their day-to-day social interactions, and they don't know how to stop playing

Anyway, there yiz go. tl;dr - all the world's a stage
Men will also kill each other so their mates will not laugh at them. And themselves.

IMO understanding the status games we play well enough to be able to change them is the only hope we have of fixing that
Plenty of dickhead women out there too boss.
I've seen women laugh at men for showing emotion in public or parrot the usual "i'm all for equality but feminism has gone too far and men should be men" talking points.
@_egg none of these were worthy of calling out for "absolving abuse"? Just my comments about why some women act like "dickheads" sometimes which were a reaction to 4 pages which can largely be summed up as "it's all women's fault anyway" with the occasional "I'm still a nice guy even though women have been evil to me but I can see why some men snap". Perspective seemed to be required, after all, I read pages of male perspective without calling anyone names.

Edit... I hate trying to post stuff from my phone
 
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7 - No tomorrow

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When I first heard that Trinity were giving classes/lessons in consent, my honest first reaction was some version of “Do we really need to teach this shit?” "What a load of baloney"
And then I doubled down on it, when I read all this about drunk people being incapable of consent.
Like “everyone gets drunk and has sex!” – mostly because it’s been my experience that way; both get trolleyed, drop your inhibitions, ravish each other.

It’s when you start reading the testimonies of what women go through, that I had to examine where I was on that.
Like now I’m all “You wanna make out?” “You wanna fool around?” and then “I think I’m going to take off your blouse” (and you wait for the ‘okay’ or 'please') – not hard AT ALL. Kinda hot, if you do it right.

What I’m saying is two-fold
All it takes to be part of rape culture is to push back against people trying to change it. I feel embarrassed that I was.
And, sadly, if we have to go one-by-one with dopes like me interrogating their thoughts, then we are in for a long slow process. Or more like Rita was saying, it will take a new generation to change things.
 
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egg_

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Reading over the thread again I don't think there's any suggestion that men's bad behaviour is anything other than their own responsibility. Is there? Have I missed something? There are some people saying that women can behave badly too, but nobody is saying that's why men behave like pigs. At least not that I noticed
 

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