Nobody likes non-heavy rock music anymore (1 Viewer)

egg_

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Bands like, I dunno, They Might Be Giants, B-52s, Talking Heads - all my old favourites. LCD Soundsystem is maybe the exception, except they're more dance-y

Here's some evidence from my own creative world - I've been running ads for Stoat stuff on facebook for the last month or so, following one of these online courses. The standard procedure is you create a facebook ad that links to a gateway page, and the gateway page links to Spotify. You optimise for clicks on the gateway page link, they're called "conversions" in social-media-marketing speak

So for Stoat stuff I'm aiming it at audiences like "fans of TBMG" and "fans of Flight of the Conchords" and "fans of Tom Waits" and no matter what ad visuals or text or clip of music I use it always seems to cost me around EUR1.10 or so per conversion

So last week I started running some ads for the solo piano stuff I have up on Spotify, and conversions are costing me around EUR0.10. One tenth of what the Stoat stuff costs.

This is all stuff I've written myself (we co-write stuff in Stoat, but the stuff I've been advertising lately has been mostly written by me), so I don't think there can be much of a difference in quality

So I guess what I knew as "indie" is now ... well, kinda dead
 

egg_

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I suppose it could be hmmm

I don't see why audiences of Max Richter and Yann Tiersen would cost more to advertise to than audiences of TBMG or Tom Waits though. Maybe they're more inclined to live in rich countries? Most of my Stoat ads are going to India and Mexico and the Philippines, so (shrugs)
 

ann post

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Ads are a waste of time.
The offshore ones could just be likehouses where five seconds to like with a shadow acc is a profit margin for fb.
I'd never follow an ad to music.
 

JohnnyRaz

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Bands like, I dunno, They Might Be Giants, B-52s, Talking Heads - all my old favourites. LCD Soundsystem is maybe the exception, except they're more dance-y

Here's some evidence from my own creative world - I've been running ads for Stoat stuff on facebook for the last month or so, following one of these online courses. The standard procedure is you create a facebook ad that links to a gateway page, and the gateway page links to Spotify. You optimise for clicks on the gateway page link, they're called "conversions" in social-media-marketing speak

So for Stoat stuff I'm aiming it at audiences like "fans of TBMG" and "fans of Flight of the Conchords" and "fans of Tom Waits" and no matter what ad visuals or text or clip of music I use it always seems to cost me around EUR1.10 or so per conversion

So last week I started running some ads for the solo piano stuff I have up on Spotify, and conversions are costing me around EUR0.10. One tenth of what the Stoat stuff costs.

This is all stuff I've written myself (we co-write stuff in Stoat, but the stuff I've been advertising lately has been mostly written by me), so I don't think there can be much of a difference in quality

So I guess what I knew as "indie" is now ... well, kinda dead

welcome to 2021.
 

egg_

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Ads are a waste of time
Well, we'll see. I've seen lots of evidence of people successfully growing their audiences using FB ads ... in fact one of the main reasons people complain about FB (rise of the populist right etc) is that their ads are too effective. I don't know if it's going to work for me, but ... well, I put a ferocious amount of work into the music I make, and in fairness that's mostly cos I enjoy the work, but good god I wish SOMEBODY would listen to it

This guy has interesting things to say about FB ads for music, and he's not selling anything Passive Promotion - "Set it and forget it" music promotion
 

thumped

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I suppose it could be hmmm

I don't see why audiences of Max Richter and Yann Tiersen would cost more to advertise to than audiences of TBMG or Tom Waits though. Maybe they're more inclined to live in rich countries? Most of my Stoat ads are going to India and Mexico and the Philippines, so (shrugs)
You’re bidding against more people trying to get their ad in front of those tmbg fans so the price per conversion gets driven up. 10x fewer people targeting the piano audience = 10x cheaper cost per conversion. It’s not that simple since Facebook knows the relative value of all their market segments and price accordingly but I think that’s basically how it works.

Also, it’s a mugs game.
 

egg_

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For the latest campaigns it cost me 0.92 per 1000 impressions for TBMG, 0.85 for 1000 impressions for Max Richter - so you're right, but it doesn't come anywhere near explaining the tenfold difference in conversion cost
 

Lili Marlene

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It is my experience that most people just want music to soundtrack their day, they do not want to engage with anything that an artist has to say unless they're already signed up as part of the stan-club, and this only happens via top-down major label marketing, or on personal 1:1 friend recommendations. What people want is centered around themselves so it would make sense to me that your more ambient, soundtrack-y stuff is an easier sell.

reminds me of this old Slate piece

 

JohnnyRaz

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It is my experience that most people just want music to soundtrack their day, they do not want to engage with anything that an artist has to say unless they're already signed up as part of the stan-club, and this only happens via top-down major label marketing, or on personal 1:1 friend recommendations. What people want is centered around themselves so it would make sense to me that your more ambient, soundtrack-y stuff is an easier sell.

reminds me of this old Slate piece

Is what @thumped said not the opposite of this? Linked ads for the rockier stuff costing more as the audience is bigger?
 

egg_

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Is what @thumped said not the opposite of this? Linked ads for the rockier stuff costing more as the audience is bigger?
Yeah but @thumped is only a little bit right. Ads for the rockier stuff are costing me ~10% more per person-who-see-the-ad, like he said. But clicks-per-person-who-sees-the-ad are ~10x higher for the ambient stuff
 

egg_

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It is my experience that most people just want music to soundtrack their day, they do not want to engage with anything that an artist has to say unless they're already signed up as part of the stan-club, and this only happens via top-down major label marketing, or on personal 1:1 friend recommendations. What people want is centered around themselves so it would make sense to me that your more ambient, soundtrack-y stuff is an easier sell.
Oh, that's an insightful response

So you reckon if I switched to some other genre but continued to make the kind of involved wordy music that I'm interested in making, then the response would likely be the same? That it's actually what I find interesting about my own stuff that other people are not interested in? hmmm well if so I guess that simplifies things
 

JohnnyRaz

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Yeah but @thumped is only a little bit right. Ads for the rockier stuff are costing me ~10% more per person-who-see-the-ad, like he said. But clicks-per-person-who-sees-the-ad are ~10x higher for the ambient stuff

ah - should stop posting on thumped before I've had my breakfast

it could still be that the rockier market is saturated - greater market, but less numbers of conversions from ad-view to click through
 

Lili Marlene

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Oh, that's an insightful response

So you reckon if I switched to some other genre but continued to make the kind of involved wordy music that I'm interested in making, then the response would likely be the same? That it's actually what I find interesting about my own stuff that other people are not interested in? hmmm well if so I guess that simplifies things
I'm fairly doomer about it all, people like what they're told to like mostly. Now, they also know themselves and their own tastes and they have a busy, stressful day ahead so the last thing they want is to be challenged.

So yeah, I reckon itd be the same. Not a comment on the music itself.

When it comes to adverts and cost per conversion im agnostic about it all, there might be a formula for sure. I'm in the Social Media business here in my day job and we do all that cost per conversion stuff, I'm convinced it's all pure chance, you stumble upon the right phrase/image combination and people click on it. You and try replicate it and it doesn't work.

My intuition would be that a TMBG fan is probably over 40 and more likely to be set in their ways when it comes to lyrical pop music, they're not looking for new stuff. I'm not scientifically minded enough to have the wherewithal to set up a social media campaign testing this though.
 

GO

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In response to the thread title..I would go further. .much further ..and say that GENERALLY , the majority of Irish people don't really like music at all...regardless of genre.

Until they've had a drink.
 

ann post

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Well, we'll see. I've seen lots of evidence of people successfully growing their audiences using FB ads ... in fact one of the main reasons people complain about FB (rise of the populist right etc) is that their ads are too effective. I don't know if it's going to work for me, but ... well, I put a ferocious amount of work into the music I make, and in fairness that's mostly cos I enjoy the work, but good god I wish SOMEBODY would listen to it

This guy has interesting things to say about FB ads for music, and he's not selling anything Passive Promotion - "Set it and forget it" music promotion

I meant to get back to this.

The idea of me, man in 40s lover of music clicking on music and connecting with it because of a facebook ad is pretty much the least likely way I'm going get into something. Maths for clicks will short term maybe produce some results in maths. I have actually tried those sponsored things once or twice because they gave me free 'credit' - but really, ads for music for oulfellas is probably a non runner. Even if you put huge amounts of money in the returns on spotify are as we all know, a joke so essentially you'll be funding two ponzi schemes instead of one. Like maybe advertising direct on spotify if you really want to spend money.

But really like you being you and being the maker of music you are, you'd probably not click on that ad yourself.
 

Lili Marlene

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And just to maybe give something positive -

Release music regular and never dwell on a release, this is how people enjoy music now.
Yeah I dunno, this is just capitalism, and I don't mean that glibly, I mean that some people take years to get a good album together and it would be terrible if they released unfinished shit just because Bob Lefsetz says you have to follow this model or whatever. If you're good at this kind of thing then sure but forcing yourself to do something badly and quickly just for the sake of "this is how the market works"... well it's up to you but listeners will notice. Sometimes albums are worth waiting for. If it's just about selling products, and frankly there's a mindset that it is, yeah ok, you're only a fool for working to make your product good and longlasting in that case.

Same with writers, some people can release a book a year and it's fine because usually their writing isn't that good but it's professional enough to pass and they gain meaning through the vast accumulation of work; some writers only write one book every ten years and it's good because every word is slowly carved out. They should be paid 10 times for every one book sold by the other guy but obviously that's not gonna happen.

I suppose under the streaming model quality work should be rewarded by replayablility? A long tail if you will.
 

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