General election 2020 (4 Viewers)

[egg_]

My comment wasn't directed at you, but either way I think your analysis is wrong. I really can't see how a one-off payment of bills that are already due is a win for the electricity companies. If I pay my brother's electricity bill for him, how is that a win for the ESB? It's a loan from the state to citizens who are struggling with high electricity prices.

 

[ann post]

Look I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was some screwball scheme that's been cooked up to work around EU restrictions on governments providing financial support for the energy sector or whatever, but do such rules exist and is there any evidence that this is actually the case?

yes, that is what the govt press release says.

This new scheme is part of a package of budget interventions that are in line with measures put forward in the European Commission’s 'Toolbox' of interventions – "Tackling rising energy prices: a toolbox for action and support" – published in October. The Toolbox sets out the measures available to Member States to mitigate the impact of energy price rises, which, at the same time, do not cut across EU energy law or the EU’s longer term policy framework for the green transition.

I didn't say it was going to pan out exactly like the bank bailout, i just said the mechanism is similar, the non choice as a citizen scanrio

from a utility company POV, it's not a subsidy as such anyway in a direct sense,

It is literally milliions and millions of Euro's that they can put in thier accounts earlier next year paid directly from govt with the mildest of consumer filtering decided without consulting the public. Like compare that to the pre-roll outs they've done for every lockdown so far.

You know that old game that when someone wanted a mortgage uncle/aunty would shift a few grand over to thier account to make things look good for the mortgage application? (pre digital banking of course). This is similar in the sense that to do bidding for gas in the coming months, they have the capital. If this did not happen, they would have millions and millions of less capital to do bidding on the gas markets.

We barely have enough electricity to keep the country running, in fact we don't, we had to fire up more power stations. This is a well documented reality.
The global gas trading battle is well documented and forms part of the actual press release from the govt on this thing. The money is going direct to electricity companies - i get fuel allowance tacked on to my disability for a few months a year - i decide how i spend it to keep warm - in this thing the money is hardwired to electricity companies.

It takes more fantastical thinking that this is just some mild vote winning gig that three parties unanimously agreed on while they have been literally trolling each other in a once in 100 years pandemic than it does see that govt is giving money to gas because the market is wild considering that is literally what they said they are doing and have all agreed to do pretty quietly.

 

[ann post]

My comment wasn't directed at you, but either way I think your analysis is wrong. I really can't see how a one-off payment of bills that are already due is a win for the electricity companies. If I pay my brother's electricity bill for him, how is that a win for the ESB? It's a loan from the state to citizens who are struggling with high electricity prices.

Have you read the govt press release at this point? It's linked above.

 

[ann post]

They have

What really fucks me off about them though is that both 'parties' now seem to act as if they are in opposition in some form of gaslighting stuff. see any statement of the flavour 'the govt needs to/should/i'm calling for'. Mad shit. Pricks.

Here's an example.

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[pete]

yes, that is what the govt press release says.

This new scheme is part of a package of budget interventions that are in line with measures put forward in the European Commission’s 'Toolbox' of interventions – "Tackling rising energy prices: a toolbox for action and support" – published in October. The Toolbox sets out the measures available to Member States to mitigate the impact of energy price rises, which, at the same time, do not cut across EU energy law or the EU’s longer term policy framework for the green transition.

It doesn't actually say that, nor would I expect it to if that's what they are actually doing. My comment/question was in relation to whether there are specific EU rules against state subsidies to the energy sector (and I'm assuming there probably are) and whether this €100 might be a way to work around that, but I'm not sure that reference to EU energy law is referring to those type of restrictions. I can't remember where I saw it but I read something recently that suggested "energy law" in this context was more to do staying within the agreed parameters for independent regulatory systems, energy sources, and environmental quotas rather than actual financial supports... could be wrong though - hence the question. But I don't think this is necessarily the case as "the toolbox" is cross-EU and talks about stuff like

Immediate measures to protect consumers and industry
Short-term measures must be targeted to the specific needs of consumers and industry, and be temporary in nature to reflect the expected duration of the current energy price spike.

EMERGENCY INCOME SUPPORT AND PREVENTING DISCONNECTIONS

Member States can:

• Make social payments to those most at risk to help them pay their energy bills – this can be financed with EU Emissions Trading System (ETS) revenues
• Put in place safeguards to avoid disconnections from the energy grid or authorise deferrals of bill payments temporarily

 

[egg_]

Have you read the govt press release at this point? It's linked above.

Yes! I don't see where you're getting the bailout thing at all. The average energy bill in Ireland is around €100 a month so the govt is (approximately) paying everyone's January bill. Where is the extra money for the electricity companies here? Maybe they'll get the money at most a month earlier than they would have otherwise, but ECB deposit interest rates are negative atm so I can't see how that's a win for them.

 

[magicbastarder]

yeah, that's the main functional difference i would see; the utility companies get a nice fat wodge landing in the bank all in one go instead of it trickling in over several weeks or a month.

 

[ann post]

Yes! I don't see where you're getting the bailout thing at all. The average energy bill in Ireland is around €100 a month so the govt is (approximately) paying everyone's January bill. Where is the extra money for the electricity companies here? Maybe they'll get the money at most a month earlier than they would have otherwise, but ECB deposit interest rates are negative atm so I can't see how that's a win for them.

I got the bailout thing from the govt intervening with money to stop two potential outcomes - one being poor people get cut off because energy prices go wild, two being energy companies not being able to secure sufficient gas supplies to continue to supply electricty. It's pretty much the definition of the word.

 

[egg_]

energy companies not being able to secure sufficient gas supplies to continue to supply electricty

I really can't see how having January's money a few weeks early will help this.

 

[ann post]

I really can't see how having January's money a few weeks early will help this.

How do you want it worded

Scenario A: I have to buy something that is for sale in a competitive market that is increasing in price by the day ASAP and I have money
Scenario B:I have to buy something that is for sale in a competitive market that is increasing in price by the day ASAP and I have to wait for money from a multitude of sources, not all of which might be able to pay me at the expected time.

It's a bit tedious slowly chasing the point tbh @egg_ - I called it a bailout because that is the word for it, now you are moving to basic have money/don't have money economics - and to what end?

We get to the point that either A: we establish the govt have intervened in electricity supply with money, which is what happened or B: this is a completely good faith gesture designed to just give people a gentle mid january hug, there isn't a documented european gas crisis, there isnt a national electricity shortage, there weren't emergency meetings with putin to make sure europe had gas, the EU isn't using the actual words 'energy crisis' and we aren't taking money from a pot that was supposed to be for the environment and using it to secure a gas supply.

What end are you chasing, when you finally dismantle all my posts, what is your desired description of it?

 

[Cormcolash]

Here's an example.

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Aye, but everybody knows she's a total cunt, that's why they didn't vote for her

 

[egg_]

We get to the point that either A: we establish the govt have intervened in electricity supply with money, which is what happened or B: this is a completely good faith gesture designed to just give people a gentle mid january hug, there isn't a documented european gas crisis, there isnt a national electricity shortage, there weren't emergency meetings with putin to make sure europe had gas, the EU isn't using the actual words 'energy crisis' and we aren't taking money from a pot that was supposed to be for the environment and using it to secure a gas supply.

What end are you chasing, when you finally dismantle all my posts, what is your desired description of it?

Haha ok

I really don't think it's accurate to call this a bailout, because I can't see how what the govt has done will have any effect on the gas crisis, the national electricity shortage, the emergency meetings with Putin, or the energy crisis. I mean - maybe they've done this because they want to affect those things, but I can't see how it's going to work

(I don't think your Scenarios A and B above are realistic - the electricity companies aren't waiting for me to pay my bill so they can bid 100 quid more for some gas. I don't know much about corporate finance, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that)

 

[ann post]

Haha ok

I really don't think it's accurate to call this a bailout, because I can't see how what the govt has done will have any effect on the gas crisis, the national electricity shortage, the emergency meetings with Putin, or the energy crisis. I mean - maybe they've done this because they want to affect those things, but I can't see how it's going to work

(I don't think your Scenarios A and B above are realistic - the electricity companies aren't waiting for me to pay my bill so they can bid 100 quid more for some gas. I don't know much about corporate finance, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that)

It's not going to work - that's the plan - it's a financial band aid, bridging finance, a short term loan, a backhander or twenty other terms for putting money somewhere to stop bad things happening in like two weeks if you are really averse to calling it bailout, fine, we'll just call it emergency money because there is no money somewhere or something? It's short term non solution to problem that we don't have a solution for as documented below. The energy companies raw material cost has increased 400%, that means they are gonna be operating in the red right now. guaranteed money on a date is probably the best news they've had in 12 months

Brussels mulls EU-wide gas reserve to prevent energy price volatility

The European Commission has unveiled a series of short-term measures to palliate the ongoing energy crunch, together with proposals for the long haul. #EuropeNews

www.euronews.com

 

[Lili Marlene]

I don't mean this in a troll-y way but in a genuine one, the more the Irish Times posts opinion pieces by the old established order of ex-ministers and current affairs journalists worrying about a Sinn Fein government the more I want to see a Sinn Fein government

No room for complacency over Sinn Féin in government

There has been little or no consideration of how the party is controlled and by whom

www.irishtimes.com

At some point, Sinn Féin will need to confront its violent past and grapple with 'sorry'

Party has mastered the non-apology but will need to confront its past

www.irishtimes.com

Kathy Sheridan: Will the real Sinn Féin please stand up?

Party members cannot continue to deny legitimacy of the State SF is expected to govern

www.irishtimes.com

Michael McDowell: Time to wake up and smell the coffee over Sinn Féin

Sinn Féin is not a republican party but an elite cadre-controlled echo of Weimar

www.irishtimes.com

 

[ann post]

There has been little or no consideration of how the party is controlled and by whom

The Ultimate governing and legislative body within Sinn Fein is the annual Ard Fheis (conference). It consists of (a) The officers and members of the Ard Chomhairle. (b) Two delegates from each comhairle limistear. (c) Two delegates from each comhairle ceantair. (d) Two delegates from each affiliated cumann of 20 members or less.

Ard Chomhairle Officer Board 2018 - 2019

President: Mary Lou McDonald
Vice President: Michelle O'Neill
Chairperson: Declan Kearney
General Secretary: Ken O'Connell
Director of Publicity: Ciarán Quinn
Treasurers: Pearse Doherty and Conor Murphy

What does it say behind the paywall.

I remeber last election some FG lackey gritted teeth on twitter saying 'the centrrrre will holllllddd'. I guess if you are raised to believe that you are 50% likely to win every election this must be upsetting.

Anywhoo. As always, i want a coalition, but without FFg beyond maybe a representative of the actual population in terms of landlords and neoliberalists.

 

[rettucs]

I don't mean this in a troll-y way but in a genuine one, the more the Irish Times posts opinion pieces by the old established order of ex-ministers and current affairs journalists worrying about a Sinn Fein government the more I want to see a Sinn Fein government

No room for complacency over Sinn Féin in government

There has been little or no consideration of how the party is controlled and by whom

www.irishtimes.com

At some point, Sinn Féin will need to confront its violent past and grapple with 'sorry'

Party has mastered the non-apology but will need to confront its past

www.irishtimes.com

Kathy Sheridan: Will the real Sinn Féin please stand up?

Party members cannot continue to deny legitimacy of the State SF is expected to govern

www.irishtimes.com

Michael McDowell: Time to wake up and smell the coffee over Sinn Féin

Sinn Féin is not a republican party but an elite cadre-controlled echo of Weimar

www.irishtimes.com

same, and I'm a bit torn after convincing myself I would vote shinners for the first time in my life. Will see if there's a solid independent running next time, but I'm leaning towards shinners because of the shinners-bashing. I'm not even convinced they'd be any good in govt.

 

[magicbastarder]

i'm curious as to whether the IT is deliberately commissioning these pieces or whether they're allowing the paper to be used like a letters page for Important Men With Opinions.

 

[Lili Marlene]

What does it say behind the paywall.

I remeber last election some FG lackey gritted teeth on twitter saying 'the centrrrre will holllllddd'. I guess if you are raised to believe that you are 50% likely to win every election this must be upsetting.

Anywhoo. As always, i want a coalition, but without FFg beyond maybe a representative of the actual population in terms of landlords and neoliberalists.

which piece? I can send you them if you want. None of them are especially worth reading in all honesty.

 

[Unicron]

Anywhoo. As always, i want a coalition, but without FFg beyond maybe a representative of the actual population in terms of landlords and neoliberalists.

Current feeling is that it'll be SF/FF/others.

 

[magicbastarder]

same, and I'm a bit torn after convincing myself I would vote shinners for the first time in my life. Will see if there's a solid independent running next time, but I'm leaning towards shinners because of the shinners-bashing. I'm not even convinced they'd be any good in govt.

i wouldn't be able to bring myself to vote for dessie ellis.