Fight For Women's Right to Choose! (11 Viewers)

[Janer]

at last! a voice of reason...

I liked that post too but because I am such a headcase I couldn't say incase I tinted it

 

[Janer]

Wow!

Wow!

 

[oh shit]

Does it reassure you to think that?

yes, just like it makes me feel fucking fantastic to read that having an abortion is as easy as booking a budget flight. I prefer to deal with arguments based on reality.

That might be true about divorce and contraception and such like but abortion is different. There is never going to be a time when there are not people like Janer who are deeply, deeply opposed it. And that opposition comes from all corners of society -not just the Legion of Mary. There is nothing backward or illogical about the view that a foutus is human and deserves protection. No mater how much some people here disagree with the belief.

If people here think all that is needed is time, meetings and pamhlets then they are crazy.

You entered this thread with the assertion that there is nothing worth campaigning for, but you've gone on to provide the best reason for campaigning. It's not a teleological inevitability. That's why political activism exists.

So does it reassure you to believe that nothing will change?

 

[socmot]

If people here think all that is needed is time, meetings and pamhlets then they are crazy.

I agree - leaflets and pamphlets are only useful in communicating a stance or a viewpoint and then in changing opinions. Ultimately, legislation is needed - firstly for the X type cases, as promised by the Oireachtas in 1992 and in 2002, then a constitutional referendum on non X case type abortions, and then legislation to legalise abortion.

In terms of changing opinions, this is already happening -
http://safeandlegal.blogspot.com/2007/06/73-favour-abortion-for-rape-and-abuse.html

 

[Mormon Nailer]

You entered this thread with the assertion that there is nothing worth campaigning for, but you've gone on to provide the best reason for campaigning. It's not a teleological inevitability. That's why political activism exists.

So a future with sidewalk protests outside clinics, doctors houses being picketed and clinics being firebombed is preferable to you than the uncomfortable compromise we have now (which has taken 22 years to achieve) because you think the choice to be able to travel to the UK isn't choice enough?

You'd want to be very careful what you wish for on this issue.

 

[Janer]

/thinks of American abortion clinics chaos.
/runs

 

[Janer]

n

In terms of changing opinions, this is already happening -
http://safeandlegal.blogspot.com/2007/06/73-favour-abortion-for-rape-and-abuse.html

I am not a farmer or over 65!!!!

 

[oh shit]

So a future with sidewalk protests outside clinics, doctors houses being picketed and clinics being firebombed is preferable to you than the uncomfortable compromise we have now (which has taken 22 years to achieve) because you think the choice to be able to travel to the UK isn't choice enough?

You'd want to be very careful what you wish for on this issue.

don't patronise me pal, i know what i'm talking about. if people want to protest against abortion, that's their right.
i don't believe we'll see the kind of crazy actions they get in the us - it doesn't happen like that in england and i don't think the sisters of mercy know how to wire up incendaries. but setting that aside, are you actually arguing that if someone threatens violence they should have their way? maybe the pro-choice movement should start blowing up churches?

the "uncomfortable compromise" we have now is two thousand euro for an abortion, within 24 weeks of pregnancy (in effect, within 19 weeks of a postive test), with very little support services here. that effectively makes it abortion only for those who can afford it. that's worth campaigning.

 

[Mormon Nailer]

don't patronise me pal,

I seem to remember you suggesting I was either "taking the piss or out of my depth" a few pages ago so to whine about being patronised when you weren't is a bit rich. Pal.

 

[Janer]

the "uncomfortable compromise" we have now is two thousand euro for an abortion, within 24 weeks of pregnancy (in effect, within 19 weeks of a postive test), with very little support services here. that effectively makes it abortion only for those who can afford it. that's worth campaigning.

2 grand is fuck all these days esp if the family club round, call me old fashioned but as David Norris said at the pro abortion protest last Saturday after some counselling 7 out of 8 young women he knew went on to have their babies.
Do you not think that if abortion is on peoples doorsteps that young women might just say "fuck it" it'll be over in 24 hours.
But by having to travel and go to all this trouble that they might reflect on it or have you no interest in any of these infants breaking into this world?

 

[Mormon Nailer]

the "uncomfortable compromise" we have now is two thousand euro for an abortion, within 24 weeks of pregnancy (in effect, within 19 weeks of a postive test), with very little support services here. that effectively makes it abortion only for those who can afford it. that's worth campaigning.

You are going to have to pay regardless. If you are hoping for some kind of solution where you can get an abortion on the medical card or from the VHI then you are in fantasy land. It's going to cost roughly that much whether it's in the UK or here - in fact it would probably end up more expensive here than in UK.

 

[oh shit]

I seem to remember you suggesting I was either "taking the piss or out of my depth" a few pages ago so to whine about being patronised when you weren't is a bit rich. Pal.

i wasn't? i must have picked you up all wrong when you suggested i be careful what i wish for. i may have been patronising, but the comment about plane tickets was pretty offensive too. anyway, you still haven't actually addressed any of what i said.

i understand that you're basing your approach on pragmatism rather than idealism. if pro-choice campaigners switched to guerrilla attacks on pro-lifers, would you change your stance?

 

[oh shit]

You are going to have to pay regardless. If you are hoping for some kind of solution where you can get an abortion on the medical card or from the VHI then you are in fantasy land. It's going to cost roughly that much whether it's in the UK or here - in fact it would probably end up more expensive here than in UK.

yeah and indeed a lot of women in the uk do pay a private clinic like marie stopes rather than jump through the hoops required on the NHS. but, again, it's a matter of principal.

and also - sorry for the arseyness. this is a personal issue for me, but that's not much of an excuse.

 

[Buzzo]

uncomfortable compromise

Your lack of empathy for women in this situation is unnerving. Cold as ice.

And, Choice to travel to the Uk as choice enough? Do you think it's a generous compromise not to pregnancy test every woman who tries to leave the country? Should we count ourselves lucky that we're not?

 

[Mormon Nailer]

Too much bloody empathy all around as far as I can see. If we weren't all empathising like mad we might actually listen to each other.

 

[egg_]

Your lack of empathy for women in this situation is unnerving. Cold as ice.

Ah for jaysis sake Buzzo. Can the guy not make an argument without having to first prove he cares about people? Let's assume he's a good guy, ok?

 

[RSJ]

Ah for jaysis sake Buzzo. Can the guy not make an argument without having to first prove he cares about people? Let's assume he's a good guy, ok?

It's hard to assume he's a good guy when he's comparing travelling to the UK to an abortion to having a weekend on the smoke in amsterdam.

 

[Buzzo]

Ah for jaysis sake Buzzo. Can the guy not make an argument without having to first prove he cares about people? Let's assume he's a good guy, ok?

Egg I assume no less. However, I'm pointing out the fact that MN called the situation of a woman carrying an unwanted child, and having to go through the trauma of travelling abroad for an abortion an 'uncomfortable compromise'. To me, this suggests a lack of empathy for women in this situation.

MN- one can't empathise without first listening (take that).

 

[CitySickness]

So a future with sidewalk protests outside clinics, doctors houses being picketed and clinics being firebombed is preferable to you than the uncomfortable compromise we have now (which has taken 22 years to achieve) because you think the choice to be able to travel to the UK isn't choice enough?

You'd want to be very careful what you wish for on this issue.

Huh? You're a loose cannon, Nailer.

 

[Mormon Nailer]

It's hard to assume he's a good guy when he's comparing travelling to the UK to an abortion to having a weekend on the smoke in amsterdam.

Do you jumble the words of everything I write before you read it?

The point with the Amsterdam thing is simply what is legal in on juristiction does not have to automatically be legal in another.

That is the reality of the law here as it stands - and I baffles me when people canstntly talk about hypocracy on the issue. There is nothing hpocritical about it - whether you agree with it or not is different - but it pretty constent.