Fight For Women's Right to Choose! (1 Viewer)

He called the current legal situation regarding abortion an 'uncomfortable compromise' between the pro-choice and the pro-life sides of the debate. I know one encompasses the other, but that doesn't mean they're the same thing.

Cormac with all due respect, I understand the dynamic of political debate. While I look forward to your engagement on these issues, I find this shit a little patronising.

How this (like any) political debate tends to get so caught up in semantics and other bullshit, often obscures the human experiences that drive people to advocate for change and engage in political debate in the first place.
A prime example of this shit that always strikes me is the comfort zone (white, straight, male, economically advantaged) from which many politicians/people who hold power* argue and legislate on the matters in which they have absolutely no experience but make presumptions on what is best. For example, I'm often tickled pink by the irony of white business class men deciding what funding/services/etc are appropriate for drug addicts without ever having had substantial engagement with problem drug users or their families.

I think many posts here represent the crux of the problem surrounding this issue: the presumption by a majority of the population that a particular minority doesn't quite understand why things should be a certain way and feel they, the wiser majority, should decide what's best for them. Democracy in it's current incarnation ain't flawless I guess.

Regardless of the political backdrop to this, historically, policies like this have often proven to be massive scarlets (Traveller integration techniques in the 1980s for one.. et je parle, as we say).


Billy- big love, you always make tons of sense, but..... my mate got pregnant having used johnnies and taken the pill. Is this reasonably extreme? How would you prove it so or who would decide it?


*politicians, medical professionals, those in the echelons of the medical profession, priests, community leaders etc....
 
For me... it's all one very simple question, which turns out to be impossible to answer.
What is a baby?
When is a ball of cells a person? When does that change happen. If definitely does happen at some point, just when.

Just because sometime looks like a baby does not make it a baby. A human fetus looks like a fish at one point. And, at no point is it a fish.
I have zero problem with killing sperm. Or eggs. Or sperm and eggs mixed, or one cell embryos.
I dont think any (serious) human being does.
4 cells, not a problem, few thousand, grand, spinal chord appears, fine, brain starts to organise, heart starts beating, fine, for me, it is still not a baby. It is still ok to kill.

And then, at some point, it stops being ok.

I think this is very deep at the problem, "but it looks like a little person"... Yeah, but, see, it's not. It just looks like one. The brain is still booting, there is nothing going on other than the stuff that goes on in lizard brains.

For me, that's it. That's the only issue. If it was a person, an actual human from day one, I would be a hard core pro-lifer. Dont care about womans right to choose, in charge of her own body, etc etc. Don't care about any other issue. If it was a person, then there is no way abortion should ever be considered.


But, it's not a person, so I'm not a pro lifer.
 
But, it's not a person, so I'm not a pro lifer.

ok i do have a problem with this....because all that cell action inside the womb is a form of life; it is a chain of events that will, after gestation, produce a human being.

the main problem and the origin of the slippery slope argument has to do with the 'potential human' question, and at what point the word 'human' is used.

what constitutes a person? and when can this label be given to that bundle of cells in utero? when it can hear it's mother's heartbeat and voice?

it's the gazillion dollar question and I just don't know - but i'd personally never go so far as to deem the life within as 'not a person.'

(not having a dig, just a mid-morning brain vomit. this thread has been a very interesting read over the last few pages)
 
For me... it's all one very simple question, which turns out to be impossible to answer.
What is a baby?
When is a ball of cells a person? When does that change happen. If definitely does happen at some point, just when.

Just because sometime looks like a baby does not make it a baby. A human fetus looks like a fish at one point. And, at no point is it a fish.
I have zero problem with killing sperm. Or eggs. Or sperm and eggs mixed, or one cell embryos.
I dont think any (serious) human being does.
4 cells, not a problem, few thousand, grand, spinal chord appears, fine, brain starts to organise, heart starts beating, fine, for me, it is still not a baby. It is still ok to kill.

And then, at some point, it stops being ok.

I think this is very deep at the problem, "but it looks like a little person"... Yeah, but, see, it's not. It just looks like one. The brain is still booting, there is nothing going on other than the stuff that goes on in lizard brains.

For me, that's it. That's the only issue. If it was a person, an actual human from day one, I would be a hard core pro-lifer. Dont care about womans right to choose, in charge of her own body, etc etc. Don't care about any other issue. If it was a person, then there is no way abortion should ever be considered.


But, it's not a person, so I'm not a pro lifer.

So is it not a person when you actually feel it move when you speak to it.

You'll definitely change your opinion on this one when you come around to have kids.
Recently a kid was born after 20 weeks in the womb and survived. You can have an abortion at 24 weeks in the UK - that's far too late.
 
Billy- big love, you always make tons of sense, but..... my mate got pregnant having used johnnies and taken the pill. Is this reasonably extreme? How would you prove it so or who would decide it?

Well, this is the thing.
If she terminates the pregnancy early - well, there isn't much difference to taking a morning after pill.

If she terminates later on - say, after 20 weeks - then she has had plenty of time to get used to her new situation and make whatever adjustments she needs to make. I mean that is a bit late in the day and there would need to be a very strong argument to terminate.
 
#1 I now know that people who know/respect each other are less likely to disagree with each other, this is wrong.

#2 I already know that Brain is a female version of me.

#3 I don't like when Flashback and I disagree on a subject. (see #1?)


:)
 
#1 I now know that people who know/respect each other are less likely to disagree with each other, this is wrong.

#2 I already know that Brain is a female version of me.

#3 I don't like when Flashback and I disagree on a subject. (see #1?)


:)

I usually respect people because of their views/beliefs and get to know them better/become friends with them if they share similar ones to me. Hence I'm less likely to disagree with people I know/respect. How is that wrong?
 
re. the last few posts.

HITLER WAS A SENSITIVE MAN
HITLER WAS A SENSITIVE MAN
HITLER WAS A SENSITIVE MAN
HITLER WAS A SENSITIVE MAN

HE WENT TO ART SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS YOUNGER
HE WANTED TO BE A PAINTER
HITLER WAS A VEGETARIAN
HE WAS ALSO A NON SMOKER

HITLER WAS A SENSITIVE MAN
HITLER WAS A SENSITIVE MAN
HITLER WAS A SENSITIVE MAN
HITLER WAS A SENSITIVE MAN

HE HIRED GAY AND HANDICAPPED OFFICERS
HE WAS CONCERNED ABOUT OVERPOPULATION
IF HITLER WAS ALIVE TODAY
HE'D LISTENED TO THE CURE, THE SMITHS, AND DEPECHE MODE

HITLER WAS A SENSITIVE MAN
HITLER WAS A SENSITIVE MAN
HITLER WAS A SENSITIVE MAN
HITLER WAS A SENSITIVE MAN
 
ok i do have a problem with this....because all that cell action inside the womb is a form of life; it is a chain of events that will, after gestation, produce a human being.

Probably, there's plenty of stuff to go wrong with a pregnancy between fertilisation and labour to fuck things up without an abortion coming into it.

Flashback pretty much articulated my exact stance on the issue. If I did think life began at conception I'd have a hard time being pro-choice.
 
I usually respect people because of their views/beliefs and get to know them better/become friends with them if they share similar ones to me. Hence I'm less likely to disagree with people I know/respect. How is that wrong?
Up to a point but there are millions of diff subjects and to basically agree on all of them would be......well........................well.............................well......


/actually just realised I have lots of friends and they in no way would share alot of my views.
 
Up to a point but there are millions of diff subjects and to basically agree on all of them would be......well........................well.............................well......


/actually just realised I have lots of friends and they in no way would share alot of my views.

Fair enough, most of my friends have fairly similar views to me.
 
aye, this is what janer represents on this issue: no arguments, a "you are wrong i am right" attitude, and a constant recourse to sanctimonious, simpistic, ignorant and obnoxious sloganising.

i have given up on attempting rational argument with janer.


I usually know better but that rather angered me...feeling much calmer and appreciating the futility of the argument now ;)
 

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