snakybus
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Catholic Church says No to Gay Adoption (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter JenFast
- Start date
- Replies 154
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frona
Well-Known Member
No, they should! I can't pick and choose the bits of the law I like and don't like. I do and all, but I don't boast about it.
Bellatrix
New Member
We both know that's not what I was doing.
Invoking nature to support "universal truths" is lazy.
Mothers are indeed important but if you're going to argue that it is fundamentally detrimental for a child to be raised in the absence of one and in the presence of two loving dads then you're going to have to come up with something better than "that's just how it is".
Buzzo
Well-Known Member
Snakybus: I can point you in the direction of several psychological reports and studies that show it is not the presence of a 'mother' (biological female care-giver) that is intrinsic to a childs psychological/emotional/social development in a number of cultural contexts (honest, pm me if you want em). I appreciate the sentiment of the 'universal' significance of a mother figure but it's culturally/temporally bound and given the pretty fucking manic pace of cultural change that is taking place in terms of definition of the family in Yurip nowadaze, I think it's redundant to hold on to that ideal and to suggest that those who don't live within that context (Ma and Da) are lacking in some sense.
Adoption by gay couples in Ireland is impossible because only married couples can adopt. Divorce is legal, but married couples can still adopt. It's all a load of contradictory bullshit that will at some point resolve itself. The church will stand in the way for a certain amount of time but it will change as long as people keep shouting about it.
*The Catholic Church threating to withdraw their services (if it applies to the Irish context) in matters of family law doesn't sound so bad to me, it's not like the budget can't allow for it.The Catholic Church have done an immeasureable amount of good for the development of charitable and giving societies but... they've repeatedly proven themselves as inadequate guardians of 'family' values.
Adoption by gay couples in Ireland is impossible because only married couples can adopt. Divorce is legal, but married couples can still adopt. It's all a load of contradictory bullshit that will at some point resolve itself. The church will stand in the way for a certain amount of time but it will change as long as people keep shouting about it.
*The Catholic Church threating to withdraw their services (if it applies to the Irish context) in matters of family law doesn't sound so bad to me, it's not like the budget can't allow for it.The Catholic Church have done an immeasureable amount of good for the development of charitable and giving societies but... they've repeatedly proven themselves as inadequate guardians of 'family' values.
snakybus
Well-Known Member
That's fine, Buzzo. Yes, actually I would be interested in reading those - and I'd be interested in what is meant by child in this case (15 years old or 6 months old?), and what the cultural contexts are. So I'd appreciate if you PM'ed them to me.
Within the context of Ireland, I appreciate that it is a can of worms. I'm not going to even go there.
As for me saying "hey, that's nature", and calling that lazy, Bellatrix, well, I haven't done that. I think I've worked very hard at trying to put my point across, actually. And aside from citing studies, I can only talk about my own experience and ask for people to widen my knowledge by discussing theirs. If I talk about maternal instinct from a scientific standpoint, it's only to support my opinion that I derive from experience. Having said that, there is no doubt that the "nature" argument is a compelling one, and anyone who says "don't go on about biological determinism", well, why not? It has some weight, at least. I'm not saying it's the be-all and end-all, but it does matter.
In any case, I think personal stories are the most compelling evidence for me, and no doubt this is a very personal matter. I didn't ask Billy for evidence when he said that the notion of a father and mother is a wishy washy and societally-created concept (and I could get very offended at that, though I chose not to - to illustrate, how offended would gay people be if I were to say that gay marriage is a wishy washy and societally-created concept?). I didn't even ask for anecdotal stories. I just assumed people would tell them. So far only Dunchee has given any insights, and that was about single parenting.
So before you go around calling people lazy for not producing hard, sociological and scientific evidence when there is anecdotal evidence all around you, consider your counter arguments and the lack of evidence that you have provided. Broken Arm provided some studies - which I read - and to be honest some of them were compelling and some of them weren't. But I am quite, quite willing to hear more stories and read more studies. At least Buzzo presented these without tarring me with the bigot brush - but perhaps that's because she knows me a little better.
In any case, I hear that of applicant adopting parents in the UK, only 4% are gay couples, so really I suppose it's all a very small argument in comparison with the real issue of the catholic church's stance.
Within the context of Ireland, I appreciate that it is a can of worms. I'm not going to even go there.
As for me saying "hey, that's nature", and calling that lazy, Bellatrix, well, I haven't done that. I think I've worked very hard at trying to put my point across, actually. And aside from citing studies, I can only talk about my own experience and ask for people to widen my knowledge by discussing theirs. If I talk about maternal instinct from a scientific standpoint, it's only to support my opinion that I derive from experience. Having said that, there is no doubt that the "nature" argument is a compelling one, and anyone who says "don't go on about biological determinism", well, why not? It has some weight, at least. I'm not saying it's the be-all and end-all, but it does matter.
In any case, I think personal stories are the most compelling evidence for me, and no doubt this is a very personal matter. I didn't ask Billy for evidence when he said that the notion of a father and mother is a wishy washy and societally-created concept (and I could get very offended at that, though I chose not to - to illustrate, how offended would gay people be if I were to say that gay marriage is a wishy washy and societally-created concept?). I didn't even ask for anecdotal stories. I just assumed people would tell them. So far only Dunchee has given any insights, and that was about single parenting.
So before you go around calling people lazy for not producing hard, sociological and scientific evidence when there is anecdotal evidence all around you, consider your counter arguments and the lack of evidence that you have provided. Broken Arm provided some studies - which I read - and to be honest some of them were compelling and some of them weren't. But I am quite, quite willing to hear more stories and read more studies. At least Buzzo presented these without tarring me with the bigot brush - but perhaps that's because she knows me a little better.
In any case, I hear that of applicant adopting parents in the UK, only 4% are gay couples, so really I suppose it's all a very small argument in comparison with the real issue of the catholic church's stance.
I know the thread has moved on since this but they're not "disobeying" the law, JenFast. There's no law that says "the Catholic Church must operate adoption agencies"
But closing them because they believe they should have the right to discriminate against homosexual couples is suspect - well, wrong.
I was only doing a knee-jerk quote when saying that.
With regards to the maternal instinct, it's definitely a lot stronger and a lot more common than a paternal instinct. But it's not always the case.
A good friend of mine was raised by his dad when his mother buggered off. He's now got a family of his own and he's turned out to be an excellent individual - who has absolutely no problems dealing with women (and believe me, he has to deal with a lot of women!). And he was brought up by his dad - and it was best his mother wasn't around.
That said, the link between a mother and a child is something that's universal. There really isn't any society where the normal kin structure doesn't involve the mother having a fundamental relationship with the child. It's simple - the mother actually gives birth to the child and has the equipment to nurture it in the first few months.
But, as with all things, there are exceptions - and plenty of them.
The father figure is, whether we like it or not, a cultural construct. There are several anthropological studies to back this up, but the classic one is Malinowski's Trobriand Island study - which was the first case to prove that the Oedipus Complex wasn't something instinctual.
That said, it is important for a child to have a male influence in their life. Again, every society has a kin structure where some male will play a pivotal role in a child's life - be that the brother of the mother, the biological father, the maternal grandfather, some guy in authority, a priest etc.
And it's something I believe myself - it is healthy for a child to have an adult man, or men, involved in some way in their growing up. Whether that person is the father or not is dependent on the situation. I mean, I think a guy who simply abandons his kids is a total arsehole - you get a lot more of that over this side of the water.
But it goes without saying, and we all know people who have been brought up by a single parent, or have experience of this ourselves, and that person has turned out to be just fine.
I know what you're coming from Snaky. You're a good dad and you deeply care for your kids. You love your wife and you can see the benefits of your child having a father and mother there for them. I'm going to be in the same boat later this year and I hope that Jo and I will make a good home for our kid.
The reason I've argued in favour of gay couples adopting is because I don't believe a person's sexual orientation should prevent them from fulfilling their desire to be a parent. It's quite reasonable to suggest that a gay man wants to be a father. And, if they are a good man and they can provide a good home, then I believe they should be allowed the opportunity to adopt. Frankly it's only a good thing and the more people who want to adopt, the better.
The idea of a homosexual couple adopting is unfamiliar to most, and I'd assume, everyone who reads this board. But families are, and have always been, fluid, unique and very particular to the members of it and the society it's in.
And this applies even to dear old Ireland. Sometimes the mother, or the father, is an arsehole and it is bad for that person to be near their kids. Again, another personal example for me, which is close to home, I know a guy who is a dreadful father and it is bad thing that he should be around his kids. Since he's been taken out of their life, they've had a better life.
And it brings us back to the point in of this thread. If you consider that the Catholic Church simply wants to deny homosexual couples adopting, simply because they're homosexual - and disregarding their existing relationship with the child, or their economic circumstances, or how they are as individuals... well, it's easy to see that the Church is wrong in this debate.
snakybus
Well-Known Member
Buzzo
Well-Known Member
Bear with me Snakeman. I'll have to rifle through a load of undergrad psychology notes but I'll be glad to. Quite intrigued.
Great points Snakybus and Billy.
Bellatrix
New Member
I never said that you were bigoted, I said that nature (and, for that matter, religion) is often invoked in support of opinions that have a lot more to do with "feelings" and prejudices than with fact and reason.
Personal stories are compelling but not a sound basis for the definition of rights and laws.
I've read lots of studies on this and have links to a couple below. You might need access to JSTOR, though.
Children of Lesbian and Gay Parents[SIZE=-1]
CJ Patterson - Child Development, 1992 - JSTOR
[/SIZE]http://www.jstor.org/view/00093920/ap030266/03a00010/0
Adoption of minor children by lesbian and gay adults: A social science perspective[SIZE=-1]
CJ Patterson - Duke Journal of Gender Law and Policy, 1995 - law.duke.edu[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]https://www.law.duke.edu/journals/djglp/homepage/djgv2a11.htm[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Lesbian and gay foster care and adoption: a brief UK history - Full Text@IngentaConnect[SIZE=-1]
S Hicks, S Hicks - Adoption & Fostering Journal, 2005 - ingentaconnect.com[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]http://docserver.ingentaconnect.com...ord&checksum=64C82D7EBE1C36623342FEF0256B32AF[/SIZE]
Chris Barry/Adrian Kennedy: "Have you got kids!?"
Taxi Driver: "I do Chris/Adrian. I have two meself"
Taxi Driver: "I do Chris/Adrian. I have two meself"
Corey
New Member
this thread is getting very bookish.
snakybus
Well-Known Member
Well, fair enough. Thanks for that - I'll read them hopefully when I'm not snowed under with work. gah
But I hope I don't catch gay off them, right!!?
- Thread starter
- #135
JenFast
New Member
DUH! but the point is that they don't want abide by the law that they are facing at this point.
Most adopees would tell you that that's complete bullshit.
Well I think that's the big point. It's not about if a random gay couple is suitable or not to raise a child in a loving and nurturing relationship verses a random straight couple or about what either of those couples want. It has to be what's best for the child.
We unfortunately still live in a society that isn't as a whole all that gay friendly. And kids in particular are evil little shits when it comes to exploiting any difference in order to put other kids down so no matter how well a pair of guys or gals are at bringing up a kid if it has to deal with "your parents are faggots" at school every day then it can't be good for it.
jane
Well-Known Member
Yeah, that's true, but I was picked on in school for the following reasons:
* being ugly
* wearing bifocals
* having parents who were older than everyone else's parents
* not being allowed to do anything
* having bad clothes and even worse hair
* being brainy
* being horribly, horrendously, unbelievably ugly and kinda fat
* not being good at sports
* being 'dark', which made me have hair on my legs before everyone else did, and getting called 'Gorilla Girl' for being Italian-American
If my parents had been homos, it may even have given me the social cache to fucking trump the already long litany of reasons everyone (mainly led by my asshole brother and his mates) fucking hated my guts and wanted nothing more than to have scientific proof that I was actually an ape and not a human. My folks were straight and I still grew up a neurotic fucking mess. What I'm saying is, when you say that preventing gay couples from adoption protects children from school bullies, it doesn't. It also concedes to the bullies. Bullies will bully, and they'll find something, no matter what, so it's the weakest of all the arguments.
Plus, if the reason gay people aren't allowed to adopt is because there is discrimination against gay people, then that's just illogical. Not because it's about using kids to make political gains, but because in reality, there are children languishing in care, and being shunted around foster homes is a hell of a lot more likely to screw a kid up than the notion that daddy loves another man.
That's the thing, we can look at psychological studies and make sweeping political statements all we like, but the reality is that a man/woman might be ideal in some situations, but children need to be safe and loved. They need to know that they are safe to be happy. A straight couple is no more able to provide that model than any other family structure is, whether that's a gay couple or a pair of single pals or whatever.
I've seen/known gay couples with kids, and the only difference is that the parents appreciate their opportunity to parent in a way a lot of straight couples don't because they had to go to such effort to do it.
Honestly, I've always had a plan that if I got to the point where I still hadn't met anyone and I was rapidly losing my chance to have kids of my own, I'd just arrange something, have one on my own, and maybe move in with another single friend with a kid, and we could raise our nippers together. All I know is that whatever the family structure is that I have for myself, the most important thing is that no one is bullied, everyone is safe to be happy, and everyone feels and is loved and nurtured. I've been in a few relationships where not only would that not be possible, the kids would have been fucked up beyond words. I realised that what I was doing was trying to fit into what was expected of me rather than what I wanted. I realised that I was better able to provide a happy, healthy, loving environment for a child on my own than with someone who resented me. I happen to have what I want, and it just happens to fit with what society expects, but that's just coincidence, to be honest. I am far from thinking that it's the only way.
So rather than make it about gay/straight, I think we need to work toward broadening what we understand as a healthy, happy family. Like several people have already pointed out, if people make it through the adoption screening process, then they're suitable, and that's it.
A friend of mine (who is part of a non-traditional family, but was able to get inseminated) pointed out that perhaps they could prevent homophobes from adopting because it's much more damaging for a child to be raised in a household where people are so judgemental and arbitrarily hateful than it is to be raised by lezzers. I think it's a damn good point. Would you rather have your kid placed with fundamentalist religious nuts who believe everything fun is a sin, or with two chicks or two dudes who have a really strong sense of right and wrong, partly because they are so aware of the effects of discrimination and judgement themselves?
You know what Jane? You're actually completely fucking right. My position was based around the fact that I was picked on a lot at school, for many of of the reasons you listed yourself, but the respite from it came on the days when they decided to go after the other kids that had things "wrong" with them. Had I the gay parent trump card I doubt I'd even have had those days.
It's not that I'm opposed to the very idea that kids could be raised by gay people, when you get down to it kids basically need loving and it doesnt matter if it comes from a straight couple, two guys, two girls, one parent, a grandparent or any other relation just so long as they get it and I know you can't wrap a kid in cotton wool and protect them from everything shit in the world but you do your best, and maybe this is a cop out, I just think society needs to move on a bit from where it is right now.
And maybe it has, I dunno, I was basing my ideas on the Ireland I grew up in as an adoptee and was thinking about how it'd have been for me then had it been dad and dad, and we have come a long way since then but some of the shit I hear on the streets directed at foreigners makes me think that we're stuck in the dark ages.
That's surely the case of all adoptive parents though regardless of being gay or straight? I never had any feelings of rejection because I was adopted, rather I could see how much my folks loved my sister and I and I felt immensely grateful that I had these two people that so badly wanted children that they took ones that weren't "their own" and made them their own. And presumably if an agency is willing to deal with straight and gay couples then the issue of whether they're gay wouldn't come into it and it's just as easy or hard (well, hard, it's hard to adopt a kid) for a gay couple to get a kid from them as the straight ones.
Making it through the screening isn't a guarantee. I've met some adoptees who were phenomenally fucked up by their parents.
It's not that I'm opposed to the very idea that kids could be raised by gay people, when you get down to it kids basically need loving and it doesnt matter if it comes from a straight couple, two guys, two girls, one parent, a grandparent or any other relation just so long as they get it and I know you can't wrap a kid in cotton wool and protect them from everything shit in the world but you do your best, and maybe this is a cop out, I just think society needs to move on a bit from where it is right now.
And maybe it has, I dunno, I was basing my ideas on the Ireland I grew up in as an adoptee and was thinking about how it'd have been for me then had it been dad and dad, and we have come a long way since then but some of the shit I hear on the streets directed at foreigners makes me think that we're stuck in the dark ages.
That's surely the case of all adoptive parents though regardless of being gay or straight? I never had any feelings of rejection because I was adopted, rather I could see how much my folks loved my sister and I and I felt immensely grateful that I had these two people that so badly wanted children that they took ones that weren't "their own" and made them their own. And presumably if an agency is willing to deal with straight and gay couples then the issue of whether they're gay wouldn't come into it and it's just as easy or hard (well, hard, it's hard to adopt a kid) for a gay couple to get a kid from them as the straight ones.
Making it through the screening isn't a guarantee. I've met some adoptees who were phenomenally fucked up by their parents.
jane
Well-Known Member
This is the thing, I think kids are more likely to be screwed up because of the judgement from others than they are by their family structure. It's the stigma that hurts more than anything else. Kids are more likely to be scarred by the messages that there is something wrong with them than by being raised by a single parent or a single-sex couple, by a constant barrage of statements about what that family lacks rather than an acknowledgement of the positive influences that are there. In parts of the States (because it's not so nice everywhere) as the stigma of divorce wore off, people were far less fucked-up by it. My dad was raised by a single mom, but because it was the 1930s and 40s, it was probably less noticeable that his home was 'broken' because a huge percentage of the adult male population would have been at war, and lots of kids would have female-headed households (and his dad did actually fight in WWII). It was different by the 1970s, and different between the town I lived in as a little kid, where divorced families were still called 'broken homes' and where I lived when I was a teenager, when children of divorced parents were considered completely normal.
A lot of the people I've known who have been the most well-adjusted and sensitive to others are those who were raised by single parents. Not because men are bad or men can't father or because women can't mother but because one positive influence is better than witnessing a negative dynamic between parents who stay together just for the kids, but hate each other. When the family was seen, not as having some absence to be filled, but as a complete family in its own right, it would have been much more 'normal'. That's not to say there weren't tough challenges, but that those challenges were just part of being a family, not because there was anything wrong with them.
Yeah, and it will change when a diversity of experiences is accepted as valid. For example, there's no one way to experience living in any society, and yours as an adoptee is probably different to those who were raised by their biological parents, and probably different to that of other adoptees. It's when we make only one kind of family 'normal' that the damage is done. The thing is, though, we can say 'it will just take time', and that's true, but it won't happen until people actively work to accept others on their own terms.
Two of my first cousins are adoptees, and I always thought it was kind of cool that they brought this whole other world to our family. I don't know if they ever experienced any kind of stigma (I've never actually asked), and while everyone was really open about the information, no one in the family made an issue out of it.
That's the thing. I mean, if I ended up adopting, I think I'd explain to them that I had to special order them, and jump through hoops and work really hard to find them and take them in. Some families are probably different, and there would be adoptees as well as biological children who would experience feelings of rejection, unwantedness, and so on. When we can finally reach a point where we can actually discard notions of 'traditional' being the only 'normal' way, then it will be a lot easier for every child to grow up feeling accepted and loved, and being the child of gay parents will no longer be a source of schoolyard taunts or judgement from outside.
Oh yeah, you've got that right. I knew a girl whose biological parents were junkies, and then she was shunted around foster care for years before one of her schoolteachers adopted her. Unfortunately, the woman wanted a little girly girl she could dress up like her own personal Barbie doll, and the girl wasn't like that (for one, she was already traumatised beyond words, and this was never dealt with properly). Her adoptive dad was abusive to her, as well as to some of her other extended family members, and she was finally chucked out of her house at 16 for not living up to what her family wanted her to be. The screening process can only account for so much. A gay couple is no more likely to be a bad influence than a straight one, and that's what has to be acknowledged. Like, the perception of that situation is that it was a bad decision to let this couple adopt, period. If it were a gay couple, it would end up being extended to support for an argument that gay couples are unsuitable parents.
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