why are there so many threads started by men on thumped about how shit women are? (4 Viewers)

[pete]

Even if that was relevant to the current discussion, I have never known or spoken to anyone who feels that that term can be reclaimed.

I guess I've met more queers than you or something. Or just different ones? Uh oh - I said "queers"!

My point is that its just a word, context is everything, acceptability of words changes over time depending on usage... ok that's more than 1 point.

oh and on " On the sexism stuff, I think if people feel uncomfortable or unhappy about something, they should be able to raise it." I agree 100% - you're dead right. But they should try to base these things on the actual facts.

 

[Vinnie]

Gay men are always calling people fags. At least the ones I know are.

Even if that was relevant to the current discussion, I have never known or spoken to anyone who feels that that term can be reclaimed.

 

[jane]

my 2 cents. i'm a little late to the party.

So rampz starts a thread about women taking ages to do stuff, like paying at a cash register. Eh, that's not sexism - it's an observation made by both men and women down through the ages. You may not necessarily agree with it or, like me, you may reason that you're more likely to be delayed by a woman paying for their goods than by a man because of the simple fact that women are more likely to be the ones doing the shopping (see post #15), but I just don't get what the big deal was.

About the worst thing you could call his post is a gender-based generalisation. Is that in and of itself "sexist"? I fail to see how anyone who has ever spent any time in a supermarket queue could find it discriminatory, chauvinistic, offensive, demeaning, misogynistic... If that's all it takes to get you crucified these days then there'd better be a lot more crosses ready.

Let's see.... based on my own observations, I happen to think that men drive more aggressively than women, and have also observed that women appear to be more likely drive while distracted. There - I've said it. I think both men and women occasionally do different things badly. You might as well nail me up now.

This thread was started to question "Why are there so many threads started by men on thumped about how shit women are?" which is a seriously loaded question and probably the biggest straw man that's ever appeared here.

Nobody's denying that sexism exists. Nobody's denying that sexism exists right here. Yes, it needs to be addressed. But acting like the sky is falling because someone - a man!- had the nerve to post an observation about female behaviour? Fuck that. Maybe this thread had started out with a little more perspective it'd have been treated differently? Who knows.

So then rampz calls me a "faggot". Oh boy. Sexist AND homophobic? JACKPOT! Guys - I'm not gay, and "THE F WORD" wasn't used pejoratively. Knowing rampz like I do (in a platonic, heterosexual, non-threatening way i hasten to add), I think it's safe to say he's about as homophobic as he is sexist (i.e., not at all, in case there's any confusion.) It's just a word, it was just a joke - it might not be very tasteful, but we're all adults here. Nobody died.

ps just to clarify: I'm not defending him because we're both men, or because i happen to know him, or because i hate women. i love everyone equally.

I haven't gone over the whole thread to see what you are responding to in particular, but no one argued with the very possible fact that if women are more likely to be doing the shopping, or at least the 'big' shopping (which is indeed likely), you're more likely to be delayed by a woman. But that's not the tone of the post that started the thread. No one argued that everything that was said was misogynistic or homophobic, and I don't think I or anyone else who would be sympathetic to feminism would appreciate being caricatured like that. It's not fair, it's dismissive, and it was not implied by the posts in the thread. It was not phrased as if it were merely curiosity at the differences in gendered behaviour. And, in fact, whenever that is brought up, it turns into what we have here. So it's okay to attack someone who tries to speak seriously, but it's not okay to point out that flippant remarks, despite their intentions, are not always 'funny' to everyone.

No one doubted that there are tendencies in behaviour that are gendered. I personally think men and women drive equally badly. For example, 'boy racers' are perhaps unfairly targeted when the majority of dangerous driving is less noticeable. They are just easy to spot. But of course, I'm sure that, since everything I say in relation to gender is twisted around as if I'm some sort of fucking cartoon villain that everyone loves to hate, that will be twisted around, too.

And funny how Pete's personal observations can carry weight, but if I said something like that (for example, my experiences in talking about gender...), I'd be fucking crucified by the people who run around thinking that their apparent lefty politics give them licence to go around calling people 'faggots' and assuming that nothing they say or do could possibly be an unfairly hostile comment about another gender simply because they support lefty causes. Saying that it's okay to go around saying things that are blatantly offensive and justifying them because they are funny to you is not a hell of a lot far off prefacing racist bullshit with "I'm not a racist but..."

Of course we should be able to talk about gender, but it turns into a few people trying to talk about things, and a few others just getting immediately pissy and responding to what they think people are saying, often without reading the posts.

And let's remember that when we're talking on the internet, it's not simply a private chat between two friends. It's a different context.

 

[jane]

I guess I've met more queers than you or something. Or just different ones? Uh oh - I said "queers"!

My point is that its just a word, context is everything, acceptability of words changes over time depending on usage... ok that's more than 1 point.

oh and on " On the sexism stuff, I think if people feel uncomfortable or unhappy about something, they should be able to raise it." I agree 100% - you're dead right. But they should try to base these things on the actual facts.

Is this a dig at me? Because if Rampz's statement that women take so fucking long to do everything is a 'fact', and nothing I say is anything but lies, then this is all just gone beyond silliness, it's downright abusive.

It seems that the more upset people become by someone raising these things, the narrower their definition of what is acceptable as a 'fact' becomes. It's all very convenient.

 

[zero_hero]

Gay men are always calling people fags. At least the ones I know are.

Yeah its true its like if they use it in a way they want its no longer an insult or it doesnt have the same control to insult someone.

I'm just wondering if this conversation on this thread about sexism and men and women was in person would it be as heated. I mean people generally see the expression and realise the humour in person and perhaps thats why not everyone's humour comes across as intended on thumped?

 

[magicbastarder]

if Rampz's statement that women take so fucking long to do everything is a 'fact', and nothing I say is anything but lies, then this is all just gone beyond silliness

point well made.

 

[RSJ]

Well, the wikipedianets say:

So if he called you a nigger it'd be ok? I agree with you, but i think defending him calling you a faggot is just one step beyond. You know it's a joke, he knows it a joke, but that doesn't mean other people can't get offended.

By the way jane, i think you're over reacting. Big stylee. You make a lot of points in a very matter of fact way that might be realisations you reached after a certain amount of thought, or might be complex extrapolations that are part of some theory you've invested yourself in, but you make them in such an off the cuff way that they sound like lazy generalisations to other people. When asked to explain, you complain that people are "nit picking" and that there's a huge anti-jane vibe, which really isn't the case, at least i don't think so. If you could read your posts through other people's eyes it'd be pretty obvious.

 

[Vinnie]

And to be honest, this is a mostly very liberal place to be so I'm very sceptical about a culture of repressed homosexual silence. Until gay people call the apparent homophobia, latent, active or rampant into question I'm not sure that it's a particularly relevant discussion. Ask Thomas Dunning how he felt when he was a regular poster or something, otherwise it's just assumed insight into a suspicion.

Disclaimer: I am not saying homophobia does not exist on the board but insisting that any use of the word faggot is indicative of a culture of repression is starting the argument where it doesn't need to be started.

 

[Squiggle]

I'm just wondering if this conversation on this thread about sexism and men and women was in person would it be as heated. I mean people generally see the expression and realise the humour in person and perhaps thats why not everyone's humour comes across as intended on thumped?

It probably wouldn't have become as heated, as tone of voice and eye contact can usually make hidden meanings clear, although the 'heated' element of this thread has actually been quite small, and limited to a few contributors.

I don't know if you've all read the entire thread either but it was also pointed out (by girls no less) that we girls can be just as bad when it comes to 'anti boy' comments.

 

[dudley]

Until gay people call the apparent homophobia, latent, active or rampant into question I'm not sure that it's a particularly relevant discussion.

i've always thought it odd that there isn't a large gay presence on thumped though. is it unwelcoming and hostile? i hope not

Ask Thomas Dunning how he felt when he was a regular poster or something

where'd he go??

 

[Bellatrix]

Ask Thomas Dunning how he felt when he was a regular poster or something

Is Thomas Dunning the only gay in the village?

Do you have to lay out your "qualifications" and personal experience in order to explain or justify why you find a word (which was coined to demean, hurt and offend) offensive?

 

[zero_hero]

It probably wouldn't have become as heated, as tone of voice and eye contact can usually make hidden meanings clear, although the 'heated' element of this thread has actually been quite small, and limited to a few contributors.

I don't know if you've all read the entire thread either but it was also pointed out (by girls no less) that we girls can be just as bad when it comes to 'anti boy' comments.

Yeah I read it all. And I read alot of other posts about supposed sexist remarks all over the forum. To be honest I haven't been here long enough to say if anyone is being picked on but some people are quite ready to head into the fire without taking a deep breath and realising that the remarks are harmless enough.

 

[Space]

Is Thomas Dunning the only gay in the village?

Nah he's not .

 

[rampz]

so i just got back from tescos. dont get me started.

 

[Vinnie]

No he's not by any stretch but he's one man whom I know would not mind it being made public on Thumped.

As for the 'personal qualifications' remark, I think I have no interest in responding to it because it's clearly not what I was saying and I will not be drawn any further into this chicken/egg liberal wormhole.

Is Thomas Dunning the only gay in the village?

Do you have to lay out your "qualifications" and personal experience in order to explain or justify why you find a word (which was coined to demean, hurt and offend) offensive?

 

[Bellatrix]

As for the 'personal qualifications' remark, I think I have no interest in responding to it because it's clearly not what I was saying and I will not be drawn any further into this chicken/egg liberal wormhole.

That wasn't what I was trying to do.

 

[rampz]

i think you guys choose to be offended where and when it suits you. i dont trust your integrity at all.

 

[Vinnie]

I really dont think it is Dudley. It's a gathering of folk. Most are nice. Some are mean. Some like to push boundaries at the expense of other people feelings. Some like to push their feelings at the expense of other people's boundaries. It's goddamn life, not a liberal Mecca. It's great.

i've always thought it odd that there isn't a large gay presence on thumped though. is it unwelcoming and hostile? i hope not




where'd he go??

 

[Bellatrix]

i think you guys choose to be offended where and when it suits you. i dont trust your integrity at all.

I think that's a pretty shitty thing to say.

 

[rampz]

I think that's a pretty shitty thing to say.

what can i say. im a shithead. what do you care anyway?

by the way, that faggot thing was designed purely to see if i could get a rise out of youse and cos pete is a friend who would see the funny side. why dont you just ignore this shit.