new liverpool thread - everyone loves them (2 Viewers)

[coast to coast]

out of interest, why do you think Evra is lying?

He has previous from lying at an FA tribunal before. His accusations are entirely uncorroborated, and Suarez denies all of them vehemently. He claimed that Suarez called him "nigger" "10 times" to the ref, when of course that wasn't the case at all. And then in general, I've always considered him quite a dislikeable character - his constant belittling of Arsenal, while it was slightly funny was incredibly unprofessional, dickish thing to do, then his behaviour at the World Cup.

To be fair, I don't actually have a clue if he's lying or not (and would extremely disappointed in both Suarez and LFC if it turned out he was not) but I do think its a distinct possibility, as I also consider it's a distinct possibility that Suarez is either lying through his evil South American teeth, or he is completely deluding himself with self deception.

And just to sum it up... I think the whole debate and the overreaction to it is really terrible, which in part is thanks to LFC's aggressiveness. I also think that there is plenty more to come in the story, more shit to spray around.

 

[coast to coast]

Yeah I get that, but is it an idiom that would be used at all in Spain? Probably not by the sounds of things.

I don't know but concha tu hermana is a pretty South American term from what I know. Concha means "shell", hence if you go to San Sebastian, the main beach in town is Playa de la Concha, which I can assure you doesn't mean "Beach of Cunts." Concha only means cunt in South/Latin America, as far as I know.

Which of course is a complete irrelevance.

 

[Unicron]

He has previous from lying at an FA tribunal before. His accusations are entirely uncorroborated, and Suarez denies all of them vehemently. He claimed that Suarez called him "nigger" "10 times" to the ref, when of course that wasn't the case at all.

I thought he clarified that in his statement to the FA that he initally mistoke the meaning of "negro" to mean nigger in Spanish and subsequently accepted that instead it means black, not that it really changed the main point of his accusation if Suarez did indeed say "Because you are black" instead of "Because you're a nigger."

As for corroboration, haven't Commolli and Kuyt both stated that Suarez told them he said what Evra said he did?

 

[Cormcolash]

Peanuts and bananas will be the pay for Evra's infamy

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I don't get why all the players don't just walk off the pitch when this shit happens. Like, how is it 'letting the racists win' if the match goes on and they get to watch it? All these pricks shouldn't be trying to convince the likes of Zoro and Eto'o to play on - they should be walking off the pitch with them.

The Eto'o one:

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Here's what should happen, manager just says 'Fuck this lads, let's go'

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Although that one is kind of funny - fucking idiot referee like!!!

 

[coast to coast]

I thought he clarified that in his statement to the FA that he initally mistoke the meaning of "negro" to mean nigger in Spanish and subsequently accepted that instead it means black, not that it really changed the main point of his accusation if Suarez did indeed say "Because you are black" instead of "Because you're a nigger."

As for corroboration, haven't Commolli and Kuyt both stated that Suarez told them he said what Evra said he did?

Comolli and Kuyt both subsequently said they were wrong and what was said meant something else instead. Which sounds fishy as hell. I don't understand why the players and club would stand by him so vehemently if they thought he said "Porque tu eres/es negro" because you are black. That I don't understand.

Also don't know what they consider that has been excluded from the report, and aren't allowed say.

So its all very confusing. I think I'm entitled to have a little faith that LFC aren't complete and utter, lying hatefilled morons? Is it not possible that they have a point?

 

[Hector Grey]

the point isn't worth winning. "because you are black" is acceptable? it isn't. suarez just got caught because evra (and fergie) complained, and they had every right to do that. if someone took all you postits in work and you asked why and they said it was because you were black they'd get fired. suarez should have known better, and this is what he gets. clearly evra is a man with no sense of humour. and of course he accused the ref of booking him because he was black too, but again, it's not the point.

it's not that long ago there were signs in places in england that said "no blacks, no irish, no dogs". this is true, not just something john lydon made up. it's no so long ago that bristish tv portrayed all irish people as lazy, drunk, inbred and thick. or conniving. remember when eastenders went to "dublin" and it was a thatched cottage where the father was an alcho and raped all his children? that shit isn't acceptable any more, and neither should be calling someone a negro. i just feel that there's a lack of sensitivity here because of tribalism and because evra is the french roy keane. suarez done wrong. the salient point, for me, is that it's incredible that he wouldn't know after 4 years in northern europe that you can't say shit like that to another player on the pitch. evra's arseholeness is irrelevant.

however, if the fa are mad for protecting players from abuse from other players (and the issue shouldn't just be about colour...if you called a gay player a queer, it's the same. except there are no gay players, because that's exactly what would happen), then they should also try and protect players from abuse from fans, no? giving suarez a ban for reacting to 90 minutes of abuse from thousands of fulham fans with a hand gesture that was last offensive in 1976 is a bit daft.

seriously lads, go and watch Crash. racism is wrong, mmmmokay?

if suarez played for any other team, we'd fucking hate him. he's a total cunt, but he's our cunt. he hasn't bitten anyone since that incident last year, so here's hoping he'll learn from this too.

 

[coast to coast]

the point isn't worth winning. "because you are black" is acceptable? it isn't. suarez just got caught because evra (and fergie) complained, and they had every right to do that. if someone took all you postits in work and you asked why and they said it was because you were black they'd get fired. suarez should have known better, and this is what he gets. clearly evra is a man with no sense of humour. and of course he accused the ref of booking him because he was black too, but again, it's not the point.

it's not that long ago there were signs in places in england that said "no blacks, no irish, no dogs". this is true, not just something john lydon made up. it's no so long ago that bristish tv portrayed all irish people as lazy, drunk, inbred and thick. or conniving. remember when eastenders went to "dublin" and it was a thatched cottage where the father was an alcho and raped all his children? that shit isn't acceptable any more, and neither should be calling someone a negro. i just feel that there's a lack of sensitivity here because of tribalism and because evra is the french roy keane. suarez done wrong. the salient point, for me, is that it's incredible that he wouldn't know after 4 years in northern europe that you can't say shit like that to another player on the pitch. evra's arseholeness is irrelevant.

however, if the fa are mad for protecting players from abuse from other players (and the issue shouldn't just be about colour...if you called a gay player a queer, it's the same. except there are no gay players, because that's exactly what would happen), then they should also try and protect players from abuse from fans, no? giving suarez a ban for reacting to 90 minutes of abuse from thousands of fulham fans with a hand gesture that was last offensive in 1976 is a bit daft.

seriously lads, go and watch Crash. racism is wrong, mmmmokay?

if suarez played for any other team, we'd fucking hate him. he's a total cunt, but he's our cunt. he hasn't bitten anyone since that incident last year, so here's hoping he'll learn from this too.

I completely agree about the first point. It isn't worth winning. If that is his defence "Because you're black" then he deserves surely his ban, and moreover the club would have acted like total and utter tools throughout.

If what Suarez version of events is true, "Porque Negro?" then I think its a different story. And it's worth underlining the difference, as I'm sure numerous have between calling someone "a negro" and referring to them Rioplatense Spanish as negro. What's confusing is LFC's stance in maintaining his complete innocence.

Either way, the whole circus surrounding it is deeply unsavoury and LFC's aggressiveness in commentary has made them look foolish, while Manchester United's has been much more dignified.

 

[Hector Grey]

I completely agree about the first point. It isn't worth winning. If that is his defence "Because you're black" then he deserves surely his ban, and moreover the club would have acted like total and utter tools throughout.

If what Suarez version of events is true, "Porque Negro?" then I think its a different story. And it's worth underlining the difference, as I'm sure numerous have between calling someone "a negro" and referring to them Rioplatense Spanish as negro. What's confusing is LFC's stance in maintaining his complete innocence.

Either way, the whole circus surrounding it is deeply unsavoury and LFC's aggressiveness in commentary has made them look foolish, while Manchester United's has been much more dignified.

i think the aggression as it is is just to prove that suarez isn't a racist, and shit like paul mcgrath saying glen johnson should have thrown the tshirt on the ground isn't helping. a point has to be made, that saying shit like that isn't acceptable, but also the point that suarez isn't a card carrying member of the nazi party should be allowed to be made. but they can make that point while also accpeting that he done a wrong un. it's undignified, and it's gone tribal. if it was zat knight, for example, this wouldn't have happened. the liverpool-manchester rivalry doesn't excuse making comments like that. however, i've been to old trafford for one of those games, the atmosphere isn't nice, what with songs about heysel and Hillsborough and Munich and shouts of murderers and all the rest of it. it may sound trite, but the clubs do have a responsibility to their communities. if twitter is anything to go by, there's a lot of utter tools out there who think they can say what they like.

the fact that evra and united haven't said anything just makes lfc look worse. shut up liverpool, and get on with the job in hand which is BUY SOME FUCKING PLAYERS WHO CAN DO A GOAL. and i don't care what part of the planet they are from, as long as they do a good goal.

oldham tonight boys, can we talk about that? how about a strategic replay? if this were the seveties we could play for seven replays, and suarez wouldn't miss a game.

 

[oh shit]

If what Suarez version of events is true, "Porque Negro?" then I think its a different story. And it's worth underlining the difference, as I'm sure numerous have between calling someone "a negro" and referring to them Rioplatense Spanish as negro. What's confusing is LFC's stance in maintaining his complete innocence.

but there isn't a big difference in how they are phrased, which is what Suarez has based his whole defence on. Evra claims he hears 'Por que tu eres negro' (because you are black), Suarez says it was in fact 'Por que negro?' (why, blackie?). They are obviously very similar idioms, but from reading the report, I just can't believe Suarez's version. The main reason being that both Comolli (a fluent spanish speaker) and Kuyt (who got it from Suarez in Dutch) both initially stated that he said 'because you are black'. There is no credible explanation for the fact that they both misunderstood, particularly not when the Dutch idioms are totally different. Kuyt simply couldn't have made the same error.



LFC fans such as Paul Tomkins are also raising issues about the procedure, and I think this is what Dalglish was obliquely referring to - allegedly Evra was able to watch footage of the incident while explaining what went down to the tribunal, but apparently Suarez was not. That's the kind of thing that probably wouldn't happen in a criminal trial. But it's a red herring, given that they prepared their written witness statements in private with lawyers. Suarez no doubt watched the footage ten times or more while preparing his statement. The fact that he tried to say he pinched Evra to calm things down is a very clear sign that he's bullshitting, especially as he then contradicted that statement in oral evidence.

It's pathetic to start crying about the procedure only when you decide that you don't like the outcome. Especially given that LFC initially said they'd see who would be doing the apologies following the investigation.

 

[coast to coast]

but there isn't a big difference in how they are phrased, which is what Suarez has based his whole defence on. Evra claims he hears 'Por que tu eres negro' (because you are black), Suarez says it was in fact 'Por que negro?' (why, blackie?). They are obviously very similar idioms, but from reading the report, I just can't believe Suarez's version. The main reason being that both Comolli (a fluent spanish speaker) and Kuyt (who got it from Suarez in Dutch) both initially stated that he said 'because you are black'. There is no credible explanation for the fact that they both misunderstood, particularly not when the Dutch idioms are totally different. Kuyt simply couldn't have made the same error.



LFC fans such as Paul Tomkins are also raising issues about the procedure, and I think this is what Dalglish was obliquely referring to - allegedly Evra was able to watch footage of the incident while explaining what went down to the tribunal, but apparently Suarez was not. That's the kind of thing that probably wouldn't happen in a criminal trial. But it's a red herring, given that they prepared their written witness statements in private with lawyers. Suarez no doubt watched the footage ten times or more while preparing his statement. The fact that he tried to say he pinched Evra to calm things down is a very clear sign that he's bullshitting, especially as he then contradicted that statement in oral evidence.

It's pathetic to start crying about the procedure only when you decide that you don't like the outcome. Especially given that LFC initially said they'd see who would be doing the apologies following the investigation.

I agree that its totally conceivable that Suarez is full of shit/in denial about what he said and that LFC's aggressive stance at the start is probably one of the main reasons that there was no chance for settling this much quicker in a much more dignified manner. I don't know if that was just a hotheaded denial or if they had a totally different picture of events when they said that.

I'm glad in a way there's no appeal - I don't think there are grounds for appeal because its not the same as a legal case. Its an FA case (house rules and such) and basically once they make a decision then you can only appeal the length of the ban or suggest that their findings were completely unreasonable - which I don't think could happen. Also LFC were clearly being pressured by political groups and possibly by commercial sponsors to try to move on from the incident.

As for Oldham, if I know anything about being a Liverpool fan (which is it seems about 95% misery), we'll almost certainly lose tonight.

 

[Hector Grey]

i wish dirk kuyt would get a ban. go on dirk, call diamond a jock.

 

[oh shit]

fucking hell. two wankers in the crowd abusing adeyemi tonight, while wearing suarez tshirts. then the fucking stadium starts chanting suarez's name. that is at least an indirect consequence of the tribalist way the club has handled this affair.
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/new...-Oldham-player-Tom-Adeyemi-article849913.html

 

[Cormcolash]

That match was hilarious for about 1 minute

 

[Hector Grey]

fucking hell. two wankers in the crowd abusing adeyemi tonight, while wearing suarez tshirts. then the fucking stadium starts chanting suarez's name. that is at least an indirect consequence of the tribalist way the club has handled this affair.
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/new...-Oldham-player-Tom-Adeyemi-article849913.html

i'd say it's more of a direct consequence. when adeyemi started going crazy, i just knew that's what happened. brainless goons.

 

[Hector Grey]

what's the procedure here.. i think they showed them on tv, at least they'll be on cctv. the club will find out who they were, they'll be prosecuted by the bizzies, they'll be banned from anfield. then the club will come out saying "we do not tolerate that from our supporters" and the inevitable "but you stand by your players when they do it, eh?"
"no, no, that's cultural nuance"
yeah. fair play lfc. well done. there's some bad juju right there.
i wish we could just talk about the football, but that's shite too. we're truning into brookside.

 

[coast to coast]

fucking hell. two wankers in the crowd abusing adeyemi tonight, while wearing suarez tshirts. then the fucking stadium starts chanting suarez's name. that is at least an indirect consequence of the tribalist way the club has handled this affair.
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/new...-Oldham-player-Tom-Adeyemi-article849913.html

Loathe as I am to come on here and have to keep on defend seemingly racist actions - the full facts of the matter haven't exactly come to light yet and there were plenty of rumours going that something entirely different was said - and by god I hope those rumours are true. But you're quoting the Daily Mirror for fucks sake, so why not wait until the police have commented at very least? Needless to say if the accusations made in the Guardian story are true then it would strongly suggest that it is an indirect consequence of the club's and the FA's positions over Suarez.

Secondly, if you watched the match, the Suarez song was already being sung for minutes before that, it didn't just suddenly erupt once everyone cottoned on to the fact that there might be some chance to racist in the offing. To make it seem like the entire Kop or the rest of Anfield had any idea what the fuck was going on on the pitch is simply nonsense, if you've ever been to a big stadium. Of course it'll look bad that the crowd booed Adeyemi, but for all they know he was having a whinge to the Kop and then seconds later flew recklessly into a Jon Flanagan - then he started getting the bird from the crowd.

The FA and United (though Utd less so) all should share the blame for the way this febrile atmosphere has developed along with LFC. There was a massive opportunity to learn lessons from the Suarez - Evra incident but all they did was try to score political points and incite tribalism.

 

[coast to coast]

what's the procedure here.. i think they showed them on tv, at least they'll be on cctv. the club will find out who they were, they'll be prosecuted by the bizzies, they'll be banned from anfield. then the club will come out saying "we do not tolerate that from our supporters" and the inevitable "but you stand by your players when they do it, eh?"
"no, no, that's cultural nuance"
yeah. fair play lfc. well done. there's some bad juju right there.
i wish we could just talk about the football, but that's shite too. we're truning into brookside.

LFC's position is that Suarez didn't do anything racist - and that includes the admission that he used to the term negro once, in a particular context.
That quite clearly is not mutually exclusive to not tolerating racist abuse.
The big question is whether LFC's position on Suarez is believable/credible.

 

[coast to coast]

Just read some fan's account of it who says he clearly heard a loud shout "black bastard"... which is deeply disheartening. LFC climbs deeper into its own shitstorm.

 

[Cormcolash]

So I hear you're a racist now father?

 

[dunderhead]