ISIS (1 Viewer)

[Lili Marlene]

Yer man who wrote that What Isis really want piece for the Atlantic

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[тхеодоре кацзынски]

Do we trust that guy? I'm not so sure.

 

[Lili Marlene]

Do we trust that guy? I'm not so sure.

Why not?

 

[nooleen]

Yer man who wrote that What Isis really want piece for the Atlantic

did he get electrocuted by a hairdryer and start hearing ISIS thoughts in his head?

pictured here realising depths to ISIS he never even suspected

 

[Scientician 0.8]

Ugh, wish I could read what those tweets say.

 

[hydromancer]

Brussels Suicide Bombers Planted Hidden Camera At Home Of Top Belgium Nuclear Official | Zero Hedge

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

Why not?

He seems to take ISIS' claims to be Islamic at face value and that is essentially the extent of his argument. While it is true that there is no real central authority in Islam that can say what is right and wrong the fact that the vast majority of Muslims wholly reject ISIS' teachings should give pause for thought as to the truth of ISIS' assertion and his parroting of that assertion. While they can cite Quranic texts to beat the band their citations are oftentimes removed from the context in which they were delivered, Woods' article buys wholesale into their interpretation of the Qur'an/hadiths, giving them a justification while the same interpretation of the texts allows anti-Islamic elements to paint all Muslims as required to engage in violent and offensive 'jihad' when the great majority of Islamic scholars reject such interpretations.
Also, I don't buy the whole 'ISIS is a mllenarian death cult' schtick either, that portrayal moves newspapers/magazines but I think it to be very much false, these groups are very much concerned with the here and now, the glorious afterlife can wait a while. The religious imagery is used to justify their actions but, as before, their interpretation of Islam is not one that the overwhelming majority of Muslims hold to.

 

[Lili Marlene]

Right, cool, but he never said they spoke for all, or the majority, of Muslims though. As I read it, what he said was fairly close to what you said; that they use the Qur'an and Islam for their own ends. He doesn't buy into their interpretation per se, but rather is pointing out that their interpretation is a learned one, not one of someone who just skimmed the spark notes.

The reason I brought him up was that one of my main takeaways from his article was that they weren't interested in terrorist attacks, but in growth of the caliphate and establishing a legitimate Islamic state.

Obviously with the attacks on Brussels and Paris happening that is not the case, however rather than just saying "I was wrong" he is doubling down and saying this is evidence of a) internal conflict inside ISIS itself (he talked about this after Paris, I think i posted it earlier in this thread) and b) a more complicated structure that allows these kind of terrorist attacks to happen but, as per the NYtimes article above, is not really their main concern, just something they're happy to facilitate.

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

I'd question the depth of knowledge of the average ISIS operative, while al-Baghdadi has (from what I've read) studied Islamic texts extensively, this allowing him to distort them to his own ends, the average ISIS guy seemingly hasn't, if they had they would be able to pick out the flaws and errors in his interpretation. While al-Baghdadi has studied them however, he has done so with a particular goal in mind/mindframe and he has picked those texts and scholarly judgements which allow him arrive at that goal, so I'm not sure learned is the right word for ISIS' interpretation of the texts.
And yeah, he's not saying that they speaks for all Muslims but when he gives credence to an interpretation of Islam (and that's what he is doing) that is almost wholly rejected he does a disservice to the vast majority of Muslims. If even al-Qaida are rejecting your interpretation of Islam you've gone completely off track.
Doesn't the NY Times article suggest that they've long been interested in terrorist attacks, they just didn't have the capability heretofore? I'm not saying it is their main concern and I am of the opinion that these latest attacks are the group seeking to keep its image buoyant as the 'state' itself collapses around ISIS.
Fuck knows, I'm getting confused now, if I'm not careful I'll end up arguing with myself.

 

[Lili Marlene]

I think what you are saying makes a lot of sense. It seems quite clear that a lot of the people on the lower tiers of ISIS aren't well versed in what they're talking about in any real way, but those at the top/involved in public discussion seem to be educated on Islam to a very high degree.

I'm yet to see anyone who has taken apart what ISIS are saying at a textual level and explained why their interpretation is straight up incorrect but I'm very, very far from an expert on the Qu'ran so I can only go by what others say here.

My understanding is that Al-Qaeda see themselves as a guerrilla group fighting for a future while ISIS see that future as now and their state as legitimate. I can't find any ideological reason for these terrorist attacks except in a very general "we approve of them" kind of way.

I am of the opinion that these latest attacks are the group seeking to keep its image buoyant as the 'state' itself collapses around ISIS.

This would seem to be exactly the opinion of the fella who wrote that article. If it's the case the question is how long would it take for a complete collapse to happen.

 

[Scientician 0.8]

It does seem like ISIS is going back to an Al Qaeda style strategy after having disavowed it in the past and this does seem to be simply because the seemingly spectacular victories they had been achieving in Syria and Iraq have become fewer and are being rolled back by foreign government backed action on the ground.

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

I think what you are saying makes a lot of sense. It seems quite clear that a lot of the people on the lower tiers of ISIS aren't well versed in what they're talking about in any real way, but those at the top/involved in public discussion seem to be educated on Islam to a very high degree.

I'm yet to see anyone who has taken apart what ISIS are saying at a textual level and explained why their interpretation is straight up incorrect but I'm very, very far from an expert on the Qu'ran so I can only go by what others say here.

My understanding is that Al-Qaeda see themselves as a guerrilla group fighting for a future while ISIS see that future as now and their state as legitimate. I can't find any ideological reason for these terrorist attacks except in a very general "we approve of them" kind of way.



This would seem to be exactly the opinion of the fella who wrote that article. If it's the case the question is how long would it take for a complete collapse to happen.

I'm working on an essay right now that is looking at their theological justification for 'jihad' to see if it is a solid position for them to take, anything I've read leads me to the conclusion that the Qur'an is so loosely worded that you can find a justification for whatever you want in there, the important part is though that the majority of Islamic scholars since time immemorial reject conclusions that allow for 'jihad' unless it is a defensive 'jihad' that is fought in response to attacks on Muslims. And the problem with that of course is that groups like ISIS can paint elements of Western foreign policy as an attack on Islam/Muslims hence the justification. Again though, its very much a fringe view and is one that disregards the other Quranic verses that forbid killing/compulsion etc unless under very strict conditions.
I guess we can agree that the leaders of ISIS are well versed in Islamic teachings, the problem is with their interpretation of these teachings.
The State itself may well collapse in the near future, the problem then is that there's still a load of people out there who buy into its ideology and are willing to commit attacks on those they consider to be apostates (that's everyone but ISIS) and the West.
Its a dreadful mess in other words.

 

[hydromancer]

Also, I don't buy the whole 'ISIS is a mllenrian death cult' schtick either, that portrayal moves newspapers/magazines but I think it to be very much false, these groups are very much concerned with the here and now, the glorious afterlife can wait a while.

Yes but that is exactly how IS like to protray them selves in there own videos and magazines which are fairly professionally done so it is not inaccurate journalism or fabrication on his part. How you come to conclusion that he is writeing about all muslims I dont know.

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

Yes but that is exactly how IS like to protray them selves in there own videos and magazines which are fairly professionally done so it is not inaccurate journalism or fabrication on his part. How you come to conclusion that he is writeing about all muslims I dont know.

That's the thing though, death and brutality is only a small part of the ISIS message, its all we see though because that's what sells. The group wants to sell itself as a viable concern wherein a form of utopia is realised here on earth, if they focused solely on death and destruction they would draw in the nutters and not much else.

http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/w...0/FINAL-documenting-the-virtual-caliphate.pdf

Between 17 July and 15 August 2015, the Islamic month of Shawwal, Charlie compiled an exhaustive archive of IS propaganda, creating not just a snapshot of its output, but a comprehensive, 30-day view of it...Over half of all the propaganda was focused on depicting civilian life in Islamic State-held territories. The spectre of ultraviolence was ever-present, but the preponderant focus on the ‘caliphate’ utopia demonstrates the priorities of the group’s media strategists.Economic activity, social events, abundant wildlife, unwavering law and order, and pro-active, pristine ‘religious’ fervour form the foundations of Islamic State’s civilian appeal...
Tabloid newspapers and politicians perpetually cit[e] the group’s ultraviolence as its chief appeal to foreign recruits. Categorically, this is not the case. Beyond soundbites, the fixation on brutality at the expense of a more rational, holistic analysis of the group adds little to our assessment...

The report breaks down ISIS 'press releases' into six themes - Utopia, Military, Mercy, Brutality, Belonging, Victimhood. Of these it is Utopia that features most heavily with 52.57%, War is next at just over 37% while brutality is at a meagre 2.13%.
While this report was compiled after The Atlantic article was written and, as acknowledged in the report

Islamic State’s brand is flexible and constantly subject to change

the idea that they are wholly obsessed with death and destruction is not just wrong but also facile. As I said above, they want to build utopia here and now, that will take more than just angry nut jobs so for them to focus entirely on attracting angry nut jobs would be self-defeating and, whatever else you may say about them, they are certainly pragmatic.

I obviously didn't explain the other part clearly enough - I am not saying that he is saying that ISIS represent all Muslims. What I am saying is that his article gives credence to their teachings as being 'Islamic' when the overwhelming majority of Muslims reject them as being wholly unIslamic. Again, while there is no real central authority a la the Pope/Dalai Lama that can deliver a true judgement on what is Islamic, that they have been so wholly rejected would suggest that maybe they are wrong. They distort Islamic teachings to arrive at conclusions that suit their own ends. Maybe these teachings are what Allah/Muhammad intended but if so essentially the whole of Islam up to this point has been wrong. I don't believe that to be the case.

 

[Scientician 0.8]

I remember my mind boggling at the fact there was a HR unit in Al-Raqqa.

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

Does ISIS Even Have a European Strategy?

Are we giving ISIS too much credit?

 

[Lili Marlene]

Does ISIS Even Have a European Strategy?

Are we giving ISIS too much credit?

you mean like yer man you want to disagree with has been saying?

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

you mean like yer man you want to disagree with has been saying?

Graeme Wood? I was mainly concerned with his view of ISIS as 'Islamic'.

 

[7 - No tomorrow]

Is anyone here actually afraid of being killed by ISIS?

I mean as threats go, it's fairly remote like.

 

[Scientician 0.8]

Is anyone here actually afraid of being killed by ISIS?

I mean as threats go, it's fairly remote like.

Not I, I hear people going on from time to time as if it is an imminent threat but I dunno whether that is just ignorance mixed with anxiety or y'know, just something to say.