why are there so many threads started by men on thumped about how shit women are? (1 Viewer)

[jane]

I agree that sexism harms all genders. But in the same way that it can be said that by assuming that looking at pictures of women, or wishing to discuss football are not only exclusively male interests, but that they define manly and encourage stereotyping of what it is to be manly, is also sexist against men I could argue as a woman that I find the shoe shopping and make-up threads to be sexist in that they are promoting a stereotype of womanly behaviour.

Am I to take from your comment that I could or should be considered less of a woman because I chose not to participate in those threads? I don't find the threads offensive but at the same time they don't interest me. Does this not put me in a similar position to a male on thumped who doesn't participate in the 'girls and sports' threads?

The difficulty is that there is a very fine line between rational mutual respect and political correctness gone mad.

No, my point is that generalising about gender is negative in relation to all genders. The difference between the shoe shopping threads and the 'women aren't funny' thread is that shoe shopping, although predominantly discussed here by women, is not a generalisation about men. Someone who doesn't want to talk about shoes is no less a woman than someone who does. Looking at tits is predominantly a thing done by straight men (because most booby mags are aimed at lads), but that doesn't mean all straight men are into it. But looking at shoes is not the same as looking at tits because looking at shoes doesn't actually encourage the objectification that leads to the degradation that sets the stage for sexual violence.

What I'm saying is that to equate shoe shopping with femininity or womanliness or to equate sport-loving with manliness, they are equally negative. Mr Jane hates sport (except international rugby), and it actually bugs him that people expect him to like it, and if he lets on that he doesn't, there's this implied assumption that there's something 'wrong' with him. My point was that not all women like shoes, not all men like sport.

I'm saying that sexism is sexism. Things that are sexist against men are also sexist against women, and vice versa. When generalisations are made about women, there is an implied assumption about men. I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was trying to tease out an argument. Where was the implication that your non-participation in shoe threads makes you less of a woman? What I was saying is actually the opposite of what you seem to be reading into it. If I wasn't clear, I apologise, but my point was absolutely the opposite.

 

[sweetoblivion]

it's really up to the individual whether they want to contribute to 'gender specific' threads. It doesn't make you 'less' of a woman/man. I like the make-up/shoe threads, but I'm a feminist. I don't think there's much of a dichotomy there, as I live my life to feminist ideals to the best as I can. It's all about how the individual reacts to things. What's 'right' for one person could be 'wrong' for the other. Like, take beaut.ie for example - in many ways you could say 'oh, it's all about make-up and making women look good and concentrating on the outside' etc but by the same token I believe there are feminist ideals in how it is run.
We can't deny that men are women are different - and because of social constructionism, men and women inherently grow up to be interested in different things. But difference shouldn't equal superiority/inferiority. Shouldn't, but so often does.
This really requires a thesis with a huge bibliography to answer....

 

[Squiggle]

I'd quite like to see this phrase go the same way as b**tique.

Fair enough I'd like to see the practice of it go the same way.

To take the banned word as an example though, wouldn't it be possible to argue that it's unavailability is sexist. For example it renders discussing Bridal boutiques very difficult

Edit: Yeay! It works in plural so I can discuss them in general but not specific ones.

 

[Squiggle]

No, my point is that generalising about gender is negative in relation to all genders. The difference between the shoe shopping threads and the 'women aren't funny' thread is that shoe shopping, although predominantly discussed here by women, is not a generalisation about men. Someone who doesn't want to talk about shoes is no less a woman than someone who does. Looking at tits is predominantly a thing done by straight men (because most booby mags are aimed at lads), but that doesn't mean all straight men are into it. But looking at shoes is not the same as looking at tits because looking at shoes doesn't actually encourage the objectification that leads to the degradation that sets the stage for sexual violence.

What I'm saying is that to equate shoe shopping with femininity or womanliness or to equate sport-loving with manliness, they are equally negative. Mr Jane hates sport (except international rugby), and it actually bugs him that people expect him to like it, and if he lets on that he doesn't, there's this implied assumption that there's something 'wrong' with him. My point was that not all women like shoes, not all men like sport.

I'm saying that sexism is sexism. Things that are sexist against men are also sexist against women, and vice versa. When generalisations are made about women, there is an implied assumption about men. I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was trying to tease out an argument. Where was the implication that your non-participation in shoe threads makes you less of a woman? What I was saying is actually the opposite of what you seem to be reading into it. If I wasn't clear, I apologise, but my point was absolutely the opposite.

I think that we are making the same argument but from different starting points.

 

[Squiggle]

it's really up to the individual whether they want to contribute to 'gender specific' threads. It doesn't make you 'less' of a woman/man. I like the make-up/shoe threads, but I'm a feminist. I don't think there's much of a dichotomy there, as I live my life to feminist ideals to the best as I can. It's all about how the individual reacts to things. What's 'right' for one person could be 'wrong' for the other. Like, take beaut.ie for example - in many ways you could say 'oh, it's all about make-up and making women look good and concentrating on the outside' etc but by the same token I believe there are feminist ideals in how it is run.
We can't deny that men are women are different - and because of social constructionism, men and women inherently grow up to be interested in different things. But difference shouldn't equal superiority/inferiority. Shouldn't, but so often does.
This really requires a thesis with a huge bibliography to answer....

Agreed 100% - that is the point I was trying to get at.

So, we're all agreed then? Gender stereotyping and judging on the basis of it is wrong, no matter who is doing the stereotyping.

 

[carbide]

I agree that sexism harms all genders. But in the same way that it can be said that by assuming that looking at pictures of women, or wishing to discuss football are not only exclusively male interests, but that they define manly and encourage stereotyping of what it is to be manly, is also sexist against men I could argue as a woman that I find the shoe shopping and make-up threads to be sexist in that they are promoting a stereotype of womanly behaviour.

i wonder about this with similar threads too, and whether my response is my own sexism, or difficulty with the fact that shoe threads etc are usually phrased towards women, when i imagine plenty of men feel the same about shoes as i do (generally a bit ambivalent but very enthusiastic about certain types - honestly, i am considerably more excitable about chairs).

i don't think that discussing an interest is sexist in promoting a stereotype, but often there seems to be a reinforcement of stereotypes - like, generalisations about how all women are obsessed with buying shoes - along with it. i'm pretty sure i have seen this on thumped but don't have time to dig it up now.

But, to be fair... there have been noticably sexist remarks made by women here too...

i wish i kept notes. the sexism from women (mostly of the "oh, boys are stupid" kind, but also totally anti-woman stuff which i know i've commented on), followed by complaints about sexism from the same women, hurts my brain here and in the real world. my ignore list is getting bigger than i'd like.

jane, you mentioned being seen as anti-men, and i find it clear in this context that you're balanced and consistent in not being sexist. i envy the clarity with which some of ye can write about this (again and again and again) - jane, squigs and bellatrix particularly.


generally: this thread is a thumped-wide conspiracy to piss me off enough to get off the internet and back to work, right? :heart:

 

[sweetoblivion]

squiggle - 'you must spread rep' etc

I'm glad this is inspiring some real debate. I was worried that it might scare people off - glad to see I was wrong! God, the more I think about sexism, the happier I am that I am a feminist. Although the more I think about it, the more I see everywhere, and the more depressing it is to realise how biased the world is. For me, feminism is a way to feel empowered in a world gone mad!

I would like to see some men's opinions too, not 'jokey/ironic' ones however.
Also I noticed some of you guys are saying stupid sexist stuff in other threads now, probably to 'get back' at this thread. It's quite sad.

 

[sweetoblivion]

i wonder about this with similar threads too, and whether my response is my own sexism, or difficulty with the fact that shoe threads etc are usually phrased towards women, when i imagine plenty of men feel the same about shoes as i do (generally a bit ambivalent but very enthusiastic about certain types - honestly, i am considerably more excitable about chairs).

i don't think that discussing an interest is sexist in promoting a stereotype, but often there seems to be a reinforcement of stereotypes - like, generalisations about how all women are obsessed with buying shoes - along with it. i'm pretty sure i have seen this on thumped but don't have time to dig it up now.



i wish i kept notes. the sexism from women (mostly of the "oh, boys are stupid" kind, but also totally anti-woman stuff which i know i've commented on), followed by complaints about sexism from the same women, hurts my brain here and in the real world. my ignore list is getting bigger than i'd like.

jane, you mentioned being seen as anti-men, and i find it clear in this context that you're balanced and consistent in not being sexist. i envy the clarity with which some of ye can write about this (again and again and again) - jane, squigs and bellatrix particularly.


generally: this thread is a thumped-wide conspiracy to piss me off enough to get off the internet and back to work, right? :heart:

I think that we should aspire to living out our ideals, but we're only human at the end of the day, so we're bound to fuck up in places. Like, I may go 'ooh body fascism is wrong' but then I'll pick up a copy of Now magazine or something. It's about doing our best to be balanced and aware of what we're doing.

On another note, anti-male sentiments are equally as bad as anti-female, obviously. I would hate to see threads on here that are negative about men. being anti-sexist doesn't equal being anti-male, i don't think we need to point that out all the time.

 

[Squiggle]

I'm glad this is inspiring some real debate.
I would like to see some men's opinions too, not 'jokey/ironic' ones however.
Also I noticed some of you guys are saying stupid sexist stuff in other threads now, probably to 'get back' at this thread. It's quite sad.

I too would like to see some men's opinions but I think that it is quite possible that some of them would be concerned that expressing a serious opinion on the subject would either expose them to ridicule from the other guys or, if they argued that we were being oversensitive, result in retalliation from the women of thumped.

A few weeks ago one of the guys that posts on this forum said of a guy who has often spoken out against some of the sexist remarks made on thumped and defended feminist views and equality "he's ok for a feminist". This comment may have been made in jest but it was repeated a number of times and if I'd had more time I would have liked to find out what exactly he meant by it. I can think of many more examples. Another poster was referred to as a big girls blouse for a negative reaction to sexist remarks.

 

[carbide]

I think that we should aspire to living out our ideals, but we're only human at the end of the day, so we're bound to fuck up in places. Like, I may go 'ooh body fascism is wrong' but then I'll pick up a copy of Now magazine or something. It's about doing our best to be balanced and aware of what we're doing.

yep, but i don't think opposing sexism is an ideal so much as a mindset and a habit, and i don't really accept that slips in this regard are about being human so much as betraying what one really things.

(and, obviously, i can make a long list of things i aspire to vs. things i do, too, so i'm not claiming to be a precision-designed machine, but i find the sexism thing unusually binary.)

 

[sweetoblivion]

I too would like to see some men's opinions but I think that it is quite possible that some of them would be concerned that expressing a serious opinion on the subject would either expose them to ridicule from the other guys or, if they argued that we were being oversensitive, result in retalliation from the women of thumped.

A few weeks ago one of the guys that posts on this forum said of a guy who has often spoken out against some of the sexist remarks made on thumped and defended feminist views and equality "he's ok for a feminist". This comment may have been made in jest but it was repeated a number of times and if I'd had more time I would have liked to find out what exactly he meant by it. I can think of many more examples. Another poster was referred to as a big girls blouse for a negative reaction to sexist remarks.

Yeah, I can totally see how a guy might feel like he can't reply. But I think all of us women on the thread would love to hear what a guy thinks. Unfortunately it might not be what we want to hear
saying you're a feminist is hard enough if you're a woman, but almost impossible if you're a man. Those kind of 'ok for a feminist' comments are common and infuriating.
When I was doing my MA (in Women's Studies ) I was always really wary of telling people what I was studying, because of the varying reactions I'd get.
I was judging a battle of the bands competition once and got chatting to one of the other judges, who was a guy. (I was usually the only girl at these things) We talked about my MA and he seemed interested in it. Then a few weeks later I was listening to the college radio station both of us worked for. He was presenting the show with a girl I knew and the subject got around to feminism. He said things like 'imagine going out with a feminist, my god'...and she agreed with him - basically it was a really insulting and prejudiced conversation. I was incensed.
People are extremely two-faced a lot of the time. I'd prefer someone to say they don't agree with me to my face than say stupid things about me behind my back.

 

[sweetoblivion]

yep, but i don't think opposing sexism is an ideal so much as a mindset and a habit, and i don't really accept that slips in this regard are about being human so much as betraying what one really things.

(and, obviously, i can make a long list of things i aspire to vs. things i do, too, so i'm not claiming to be a precision-designed machine, but i find the sexism thing unusually binary.)

yeah, i see what you're saying there - i got into an awful habit of buying stupid magazines to read, and then gettin so angry when I would read them. It was like a compulsion. So frustrating. I hate the idea that I support this world where women are reduced to nothing but their weight/looks. But at the same time I constantly berate myself for how I look, so I am as bad myself.

 

[MDR]

I read this thread until the posts started getting longer than 500 words each. Is that good or bad?

 

[CitySickness]

Like, I may go 'ooh body fascism is wrong' but then I'll pick up a copy of Now magazine or something. It's about doing our best to be balanced and aware of what we're doing.

See, this riles me up something awful. I understand the guilty trashy appeal and all, but every time you hand over money for a rag like this, you're shoring up a "women's publishing" juggernaut that spews out a non-stop message, mostly originated by female writers, of "Women are vapid, insecure simpletons".

Obviously the men's magazine market is no better and just as insulting, but it is absolutely tiny compared to the crazy amount of schlocky Heat-ripoff crap that clogs up the shelves.

 

[oh shit]

God, the more I think about sexism, the happier I am that I am a feminist. Although the more I think about it, the more I see everywhere, and the more depressing it is to realise how biased the world is. For me, feminism is a way to feel empowered in a world gone mad!

so you became a feminist before you saw sexism everywhere?

i agree with most of what's been said here, and i've posted plenty of essay-length posts on gender issues, but i'm always put off when someone relies upon, and applies, their idealism before their own reason. it's oppressive to freedom of thought, no matter what your ideals are, and how noble they seemed when you subscribed to them.

on the casual sexism on thumped... i mean this by way of an explanation, not a justification... thumped isn't Real, with a capital R. i think a lot of people indulge themselves in virtual social situations because they're either anonymous and detached from their real self, or because they feel that they are known well enough in the Real world by other users that they can safely post shocking statements, images, and so on, that are so provocative and offensive to other people that they wouldn't dare to do the same thing in public, or in work, or at home, in the Real world. either way, they don't care. it's detached, harmless, and therefore funny. sexism is obviously a perfect way to provoke people, as is homophobia. racism comes up less often, i'm not sure why.

but it makes me wonder why such ideas are so provocative, and my answer is probably that casual sexism (and homophobia abd racism), which was only 20 years ago quite acceptable in mainstream discourse, have now been made taboo among so-called enlightened people, which most users here probably regard themselves as; while the underlying power relations and attitudes haven't actually changed that much.

this is another reason why i'm suspicious of 'political correctness'. it supposes that injustice can be majicked away by censoring certain language. all this does is make that language taboo. i'm not endorsing the use of that language in an 'ironic' fashion, but at the same time, i think that if you're going to take issue with it, you should be careful how you reason out your argument against it, in case you do just come across as censoring, pc, irrational, etc.
which has been conservatism's greatest weapon against mainstream progressive politics.

not that anyone here has done that. sorry if i was a bit flippant earlier.

fin

 

[CitySickness]

I too would like to see some men's opinions but I think that it is quite possible that some of them would be concerned that expressing a serious opinion on the subject would either expose them to ridicule from the other guys or, if they argued that we were being oversensitive, result in retalliation from the women of thumped.

If this is in fact the case – and I don't really think it is – then 'some of them' need to grow some fucking balls.

 

[jane]

squiggle - 'you must spread rep' etc

I'm glad this is inspiring some real debate. I was worried that it might scare people off - glad to see I was wrong! God, the more I think about sexism, the happier I am that I am a feminist. Although the more I think about it, the more I see everywhere, and the more depressing it is to realise how biased the world is. For me, feminism is a way to feel empowered in a world gone mad!

I would like to see some men's opinions too, not 'jokey/ironic' ones however.
Also I noticed some of you guys are saying stupid sexist stuff in other threads now, probably to 'get back' at this thread. It's quite sad.

I would, too.

I think one of the problems is that a lot of men feel alienated by feminist perspectives because feminism responds, not just to men, but to a concept of masculinity that alienates many women as well as many men, but it takes a bit of a close look at what feminists are really saying to recognise this. And a lot of people see the word 'feminism' and think 'nothing to do with me', when actually, it does.

So a lot of guys out there are hostile to feminism, not because they hate women, but because they, too, feel alienated by the macho image of the 'manly man', and feel implicated in gender inequalities, when they, too feel that they are not endowed with the power that their understanding of feminism assumes they are (even though most feminists would have that whole 'just because power is largely in the hands of white men, it doesn't mean all white men have access to that power' as a mantra). They feel blamed by feminists, when they aren't being blamed, and there are a lot of feminists that would turn around and go, "Oh christ, just shut up." But both strategies just create more antagonism. I think we do have a responsibility to look at why it is people feel hostile toward feminism. Okay, there are people like Bill O'Reilly and JAner who just won't ever fucking get it, and there's no point in trying to show them the error of their ways because they're far too narcissistic to see that there's more than one way to understand the world. But mostly, I would like to see some debate because I think it's important that those men who feel excluded from the narrow set of masculine criteria feel listened to.

In a sense, while feminism should focus on the rights of women, we feminists should use our experience as women to reach out and embrace the fact that it's not men in general who are creating inequalities, it's the relationship between hypermasculinity and success/power that help to prevent the broadening of access to power. Or at least a more equitable distribution of power. Men in general have it easier in some ways, but a white woman will have it easier than a black man, or in a lot of professions, a straight woman will have it easier than a gay man. Or a black dude who is suitably 'middle class' might have an advantage over a guy with a strong inner-city, working class Dublin accent. Or a gay man might 'act too gay', or a black man might 'act too black'. What is considered a good, strong set of professional qualities (and there are lots and lots of exceptions to this, but I'm thinking of a very basic level of 'the professions' and stuff) is whatever most resembles the set of qualities possessed by a very manly, white, middle-class man with the right accent and background.

So a lot of people feel alienated by feminism because it doesn't speak for them, but, instead of looking for what feminists aren't doing for you, why not look at what feminists do for women, and apply those values to your own isms, whether they are isms that harm you, or the isms you carry with you that cause you to inadvertantly pass judgement on others based on assumptions that have no value in real terms?

But I'm thinking of a happy place that isn't just the responsibility of feminists to get to. The problem is, in a lot of circles -- Thumped very much included -- the debate never reaches this point because for debate to take place, people who are hostile to feminism have to be willing to drop the hostility and see that very few feminists (and seeing as there are many, many feminisms, and I can only speak for my personal feminism) say or do anything that deserves the sort of hostility with which it is met. So many people who are hostile to feminism are not responding to real feminists, they are reacting (and just reacting) to a sort of Phantom Feminism that doesn't really exist.

So it descends, time after time, into 'feminists do this' or 'feminists do that' and then the rest of us beating our heads black and blue against the screen going, "SHOW ME WHERE I EVEN SAID ANYTHING THAT COULD BE INTERPRETED AS SUCH."

Everyone should read bell hooks's "Feminism is for Everybody". It's brilliant, and it's really positive, yay, yay, yay for bell hooks.

 

[sweetoblivion]

so you became a feminist before you saw sexism everywhere?

no, I didn't mean that. What I meant is, I've held feminism ideals since I was very, very young - I've always been conscious of 'sexism' in its various forms. When I was doing my MA I thought about it frequently. However, with work and everything I don't get the time to think seriously about it frequently (like read books or indulge in debate, I mean). But then I find out about something or read something that piques my interest and it all comes flooding back to me, all the reasons why I am a feminist and what it means to me.

 

[oh shit]

eah, i see what you're saying there - i got into an awful habit of buying stupid magazines to read, and then gettin so angry when I would read them. It was like a compulsion. So frustrating. I hate the idea that I support this world where women are reduced to nothing but their weight/looks. But at the same time I constantly berate myself for how I look, so I am as bad myself.

See, this riles me up something awful. I understand the guilty trashy appeal and all, but every time you hand over money for a rag like this, you're shoring up a "women's publishing" juggernaut that spews out a non-stop message, mostly originated by female writers, of "Women are vapid, insecure simpletons".

Obviously the men's magazine market is no better and just as insulting, but it is absolutely tiny compared to the crazy amount of schlocky Heat-ripoff crap that clogs up the shelves.

ok but why is this issue genderised in terms of who is doing the buying and the writing, how it compares to the male equivalent, etc...

isn't this more of an issue around the commodity culture of spectacle? i think it's a problem with capitalism's drive to identify and create markets than it is to do with gender. limiting it to a gender issue is going to drive you insane. imho

 

[oh shit]

god my grammar is awful tonight