So, erm, that article in the Times about the bank bailout everyone is reading (2 Viewers)

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

that presumes ff give a fuck about ireland.they don't,they're just concerned with getting to the next elections as painlessly as possible then once fg/labour/whoever bring in the necessary hardships ff can claim its not their fault,sure they managed the whole celtic tiger.fuck ff.

 

[Unicron]

that presumes ff give a fuck about ireland.they don't,they're just concerned with getting to the next elections as painlessly as possible then once fg/labour/whoever bring in the necessary hardships ff can claim its not their fault,sure they managed the whole celtic tiger.fuck ff.

If you want a perfect example of how they'll do exactly that just look at the bullshit that Bertie is coming out with these days. Things were grand when he was in charge, sure didn't he create record levels of emplyment, we were flying under him. What's come since, not on his watch pal. The prick.

We can point to the bank guaruntee as what's fucking us right now if we want but really it was the lack of regulation in the sector for the best part of a decade that led to the guaruntee coming in that's the real issue. The bankers were basically allowed to do whatever they wanted. And what happened when we got a regulator who did some regulating and came down on Quinn? People started complaining.

 

[Mormon Nailer]

If I remember correctly there was never any question of letting AIB or BoI fold, and the advice from pretty much everyone to the minister was to bail out these banks and let Anglo and the other one go (national irish? irish nationwide). if that had happened most of the billions of euros worth of losses would have been borne by investors rather than the rest of us - is that correct?

Seems the case from what I understand.

Can someone with actual knowledge confirm my understanding is that now we are guaranteeing the full price of bonds that were trade-able instruments and that were picked up for a song by investors immediately prior to the bailout.

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

If you want a perfect example of how they'll do exactly that just look at the bullshit that Bertie is coming out with these days. Things were grand when he was in charge, sure didn't he create record levels of emplyment, we were flying under him. What's come since, not on his watch pal. The prick.

i expect nothing less from the contemptible bastard,about the only thing he did right was getting into and out of power when he did.the foundations for the celtic tiger had been laid long before he showed up and his spell in charge coincided with an economic boom that enveloped much of the western world,for him to try and claim credit for that is frankly laughable.

 

[nlgbbbblth]

If I remember correctly there was never any question of letting AIB or BoI fold, and the advice from pretty much everyone to the minister was to bail out these banks and let Anglo and the other one go (national irish? irish nationwide). if that had happened most of the billions of euros worth of losses would have been borne by investors rather than the rest of us - is that correct?

Irish Nationwide. National Irish Bank aren't Irish - they're owned by Danske Bank.

 

[nlgbbbblth]

Has anybody blamed greedy irresponsible borrowers (developers and others) yet?

If not, let me be the first.

The same people that said "fuck you, I'm going somewhere else" when Bank A turned down their loan application.

 

[Mormon Nailer]

Is any else secretly relieved now that it has come down to a game of chicken between us and Europe that the uber-bluffers with the balls of steel in FF are in charge?

 

[nlgbbbblth]

In some ways - yes, Mormon.

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

Has anybody blamed greedy irresponsible borrowers (developers and others) yet?

If not, let me be the first.

The same people that said "fuck you, I'm going somewhere else" when Bank A turned down their loan application.

not to absolve them of blame but its human nature to want more.put yourself in their shoes-you see an opportunity to make a few pound but need a lend to get it rolling,bank a says no,are you gonna
(1) pack the idea in
(2) decide to try other banks?

also,were bank a even saying no?they were getting cheap loans from the big international banks,it suited them to make these loans.

 

[ann post]

not really. its pretty tried and tested now that party comes before country. its not a good state of affairs. i'd say people are relieved in a stockholm syndrome sort of way. it would be more relieving if they had listened to anyone but their own pockets in the past decade. its been repeated so often, people are starting to believe all this was necessary. it wasnt.

 

[nlgbbbblth]

also,were bank a even saying no?they were getting cheap loans from the big international banks,it suited them to make these loans.

Yes they were. Some banks (and individual sanctioners within banks) were less reckless than others and took the view that such deals were risky and repayment capacity was only average at best. No point in lending it if you can't get it back.

Did the customer listen?

Did they fuck.

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

well i can't argue that,im sure wiser counsel did prevail on occasion but certainly some banks couldn't wait to lend money,no individual group (is that an oxymoron?) can really be held responsible,it was a collective madness.

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

editorial in the times today

Was it for this?

IT MAY seem strange to some that The Irish Times would ask whether this is what the men of 1916 died for: a bailout from the German chancellor with a few shillings of sympathy from the British chancellor on the side. There is the shame of it all. Having obtained our political independence from Britain to be the masters of our own affairs, we have now surrendered our sovereignty to the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and the International Monetary Fund. Their representatives ride into Merrion Street today.


Fianna Fáil has sometimes served Ireland very well, sometimes very badly. Even in its worst times, however, it retained some respect for its underlying commitment that the Irish should control their own destinies. It lists among its primary aims the commitment “to maintain the status of Ireland as a sovereign State”. Its founder, Eamon de Valera, in his inaugural address to his new party in 1926, spoke of “the inalienability of national sovereignty” as being fundamental to its beliefs. The Republican Party’s ideals are in tatters now.


The Irish people do not need to be told that, especially for small nations, there is no such thing as absolute sovereignty. We know very well that we have made our independence more meaningful by sharing it with our European neighbours. We are not naive enough to think that this State ever can, or ever could, take large decisions in isolation from the rest of the world. What we do expect, however, is that those decisions will still be our own. A nation’s independence is defined by the choices it can make for itself.


Irish history makes the loss of that sense of choice all the more shameful. The desire to be a sovereign people runs like a seam through all the struggles of the last 200 years. “Self-determination” is a phrase that echoes from the United Irishmen to the Belfast Agreement. It continues to have a genuine resonance for most Irish people today.


The true ignominy of our current situation is not that our sovereignty has been taken away from us, it is that we ourselves have squandered it. Let us not seek to assuage our sense of shame in the comforting illusion that powerful nations in Europe are conspiring to become our masters. We are, after all, no great prize for any would-be overlord now. No rational European would willingly take on the task of cleaning up the mess we have made. It is the incompetence of the governments we ourselves elected that has so deeply compromised our capacity to make our own decisions.


They did so, let us recall, from a period when Irish sovereignty had never been stronger. Our national debt was negligible. The mass emigration that had mocked our claims to be a people in control of our own destiny was reversed. A genuine act of national self-determination had occurred in 1998 when both parts of the island voted to accept the Belfast Agreement. The sense of failure and inferiority had been banished, we thought, for good.


To drag this State down from those heights and make it again subject to the decisions of others is an achievement that will not soon be forgiven. It must mark, surely, the ignominious end of a failed administration.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1118/1224283626246.html

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

editorial in the times today
"IT MAY seem strange to some that The Irish Times would ask whether this is what the men of 1916 died for"

i would be amongst those 'some' that would see it strange.everytime i read that paper theres at least one pro-british article in it and it always seems to have a distinct anti irish slant to it,i have no problem with that in itself,papaers may print what they like but for them to then come out with an article like the above sticks in the craw just a bit.
don't spend a lifetime knocking irish nationalism then print articles that would appear more at home in an phoblacht.

 

[Lili Marlene]

Is any else secretly relieved now that it has come down to a game of chicken between us and Europe that the uber-bluffers with the balls of steel in FF are in charge?

No. They're fucking calling it "playing poker". Playing fucking poker.

yeah, it's all very well if we win our "game" . Quite frankly we should fold immediately and do what we're told. It's this kind of risky gambling that got us here in the first place.


It's a bloody faulty metaphor, as if the "hand" we've been dealt has been plucked at random.

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

Quite frankly we should fold immediately and do what we're told.

i wouldn't go that far,the germans would love nothing more than to force us to up our corporate tax rate,at this stage we really cannot afford to lose that.

 

[Lili Marlene]

i wouldn't go that far,the germans would love nothing more than to force us to up our corporate tax rate,at this stage we really cannot afford to lose that.

I'd likely lose my job if that happened. Gosh.

on that note

I know that the spades are the swords of a soldier
I know that the clubs are weapons of war
I know that diamonds mean money for this art
But that's not the shape of my heart

Think about it.



yeah, there's nothing there.
​

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

i would be amongst those 'some' that would see it strange.everytime i read that paper theres at least one pro-british article in it and it always seems to have a distinct anti irish slant to it,i have no problem with that in itself,papaers may print what they like but for them to then come out with an article like the above sticks in the craw just a bit.
don't spend a lifetime knocking irish nationalism then print articles that would appear more at home in an phoblacht.

in what sense do you mean they are pro-british and anti-irish? being anti-british in a pro-irish way seems a bit old-fashioned these days. anyway, whatever about all that, the content of the article seems spot on to me.

 

[hugh]

No. They're fucking calling it "playing poker". Playing fucking poker.

yeah, it's all very well if we win our "game" . Quite frankly we should fold immediately and do what we're told. It's this kind of risky gambling that got us here in the first place.


It's a bloody faulty metaphor, as if the "hand" we've been dealt has been plucked at random.

Yeah I agree ..... being relieved FF are running this show is just hoping that their "cute hoorism" will win out, that they'll pull a stroke, that by a nudge and a wink they will get a good deal. It won't happen. The game's up.

 

[hugh]

i wouldn't go that far,the germans would love nothing more than to force us to up our corporate tax rate,at this stage we really cannot afford to lose that.

I disagree. We have a ridiculously low rate of corporation tax. Ireland 12.5%. The arch-capitalist US something like 35%. That's an insane situation. As someone put it in the paper today, we are like the economic scabs of Europe.