So, erm, that article in the Times about the bank bailout everyone is reading (2 Viewers)

[pete]

talking of bitching, and scapegoats, and blame...

when olli rehn was giving his speech at the i.i.e.a., which was covered on the news, they showed a clip of anti-e.u. protesters outside.

i've heard a few mutterings about how we'd be 'better off' if we'd stayed outside the e.u. and got through this ourselves.

not only is this not a persuasive argument, it's not even a coherent one. why are people (not just taxi drivers, but people who ought to know better) making it? i'm no fan of the e.u., but imagine for a moment that we were outside the tent looking in. we'd have a worthless irish punt (no bailout funds, no euro to be protected, nobody giving a fuck), and zero pressure from outside to get our shit sorted. similar to, say, the congo or guatemala or the like.

they may be 'unelected' 'eurocrats' and all the rest of it. but they know what they're doing. we don't. i don't like the fact that we're stuck with liberal-capitalist song and dance, but for as long as we are, we should be glad we're on the inside this time around. we're the children. they're the adults.

edit: you can see the clip here.

sellout

 

[D0njo]

"they know what they're doing. we don't. we're the children. they're the adults."

I'm not the biggest fan of the E.U. either but that's a great way of looking at it.

 

[taubstumm]

sellout

ireland's best album came after they signed to geffen

 

[therealjohnny]

talking of bitching, and scapegoats, and blame...

when olli rehn was giving his speech at the i.i.e.a., which was covered on the news, they showed a clip of anti-e.u. protesters outside.

i've heard a few mutterings about how we'd be 'better off' if we'd stayed outside the e.u. and got through this ourselves.

not only is this not a persuasive argument, it's not even a coherent one. why are people (not just taxi drivers, but people who ought to know better) making it? i'm no fan of the e.u., but imagine for a moment that we were outside the tent looking in. we'd have a worthless irish punt (no bailout funds, no euro to be protected, nobody giving a fuck), and zero pressure from outside to get our shit sorted. similar to, say, the congo or guatemala or the like.

they may be 'unelected' 'eurocrats' and all the rest of it. but they know what they're doing. we don't. i don't like the fact that we're stuck with liberal-capitalist song and dance, but for as long as we are, we should be glad we're on the inside this time around. we're the children. they're the adults.

edit: you can see the clip here.

'When you make your peace with authority, you become authority.'
Jim Morrison.

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

if you protest against the EU it might not mean you want out of the EU, you might just have specific issues with it which you wish to shout at Rehn

 

[magicbastarder]

they may be 'unelected' 'eurocrats' and all the rest of it. but they know what they're doing. we don't.

i don't think we've had much luck with elected officials, so the fact that they're unelected wouldn't cause me sleepless nights.

 

[ratmonkey]

'When you make your peace with authority, you become authority.'
Jim Morrison.

How does that work? Voltron style?

 

[therealjohnny]

I've been wondering about that all day

http://thumped.com/bbs/showthread.php?82277-Mr-Mojo-Risin...case-dismissed-!!&p=1376008#post1376008

 

[Scientician 0.8]

I haven't heard any decent argument for leaving the EU, but it's not completely beyond the Pale to suggest Ireland reverting to using the Punt. I am not an economist though, just wanted to note that distinction.

 

[hugh]

I haven't heard any decent argument for leaving the EU, but it's not completely beyond the Pale to suggest Ireland reverting to using the Punt. I am not an economist though, just wanted to note that distinction.

Well it would mean we could devalue our currency and therefore boost exports. Also, the money we borrow abroad would then be worth more in the domestic economy. Also, if we were not in the EU we could probably simply default on our debts. But then I suppose we wouldn't be able to borrow any more money abroad.

I don't know what I am talking about either.

I can see a strong anti-EU sentiment emerging. They may bail us out, but the hardships that that entails will be blamed on them and some parties will try and capitalize on that. In general though I am not completely averse to handing over power to faceless unelected bureaucrats from Brussels. Can they possibly do a worse job than the people we have elected?

 

[ratmonkey]

Isn't calling the bureacrats in Brussels unelected much like calling the civil serivce here unelected? Do we not elect MEPs?

Slightly tangential, but I'm not quite sure what the big thing about being directly elected is anyway. We'd probably be better off if we had ministers who weren't directly elected but had some experience in the field where they were supposed to be ministering as opposed to just being TDs competent at working crowds to get a vote.

 

[ann post]

it's not completely beyond the Pale to suggest Ireland reverting to using the Punt.

I loved this idea since i first heard it. one flaw i can see is that we dont actually trade internally enough at the minute to have an internal economy. anyone (including myself) can look around their gaff and see that, even down to the shirt on your back. we'd possibly worse off as a few major importers could decide what a punt was worth. I still love the idea though.

and hugh - think that EU eurocrats can really really fuck this place up proper. i'm basing this on living in donegal all my adult life. donegal (read ireland) is just too far from dublin (read brussels or wherever it is this week) to be worth taking care of properly. in case it passed by, a shinner just had an 18 month legal battle just to get an election to happen that was legally a necessity. put that on a european scale...

 

[hugh]

Isn't calling the bureacrats in Brussels unelected much like calling the civil serivce here unelected? Do we not elect MEPs?

True ..... calling them "unelected" is a bit of a simplification.

Ann Post - yeah, I take your point, but I think it can go either way.

I'm beginning to feel pretty confident though that if we put our heads together we can sort this shit out.

 

[Lili Marlene]

Could we really just leave the euro when it suits us though? There must be some agreement stopping that kind of thing?

 

[ann post]

Could we really just leave the euro when it suits us though? There must be some agreement stopping that kind of thing?

The idea i heard floated was that we stay euro for all matters trade, but internally we use punts.

 

[Mormon Nailer]

Economics make my head hurt and baffles me..
but I always considered "Let's leave the Euro" constituency as akin to the "lets go back on the gold standard" crown in the US.

It's more emotional than realistic.

 

[ann post]

Economics make my head hurt and baffles me..

man up. thats what women say about metal.

 

[Milker]

talking of bitching, and scapegoats, and blame...

when olli rehn was giving his speech at the i.i.e.a., which was covered on the news, they showed a clip of anti-e.u. protesters outside.

i've heard a few mutterings about how we'd be 'better off' if we'd stayed outside the e.u. and got through this ourselves.

not only is this not a persuasive argument, it's not even a coherent one. why are people (not just taxi drivers, but people who ought to know better) making it? i'm no fan of the e.u., but imagine for a moment that we were outside the tent looking in. we'd have a worthless irish punt (no bailout funds, no euro to be protected, nobody giving a fuck), and zero pressure from outside to get our shit sorted. similar to, say, the congo or guatemala or the like.

they may be 'unelected' 'eurocrats' and all the rest of it. but they know what they're doing. we don't. i don't like the fact that we're stuck with liberal-capitalist song and dance, but for as long as we are, we should be glad we're on the inside this time around. we're the children. they're the adults.

edit: you can see the clip here.

Wasn't the poorly regulated access to international funds that EU membership gave us and a cockiness that the EU will 'simply bail us out' an integral part of why our leaders and masters played fast and loose w our shit? Is there possibly even an academic argument that had we simply remained politically allied to Europe we could(stretch italicssss) have been forced to produce better leaders and mature social values & behaviours because there was no-one to get us off the hook....or to use taubs example would we have had to grow up rather than remain immature, spoiled, dependent fools.

We can't consider leaving now even if it were possible...that'd be mad...but what advantages or strengths does Ireland have apart from the ginormous plus that we are in the EU?

(goes w/out sayin I'm not-an-expert-not-an-expert-not-an-expert........)

 

[Mormon Nailer]

man up. thats what women say about metal.

I like my science undismal
And my fretboards untapped
Simples I am

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

there's no science like the dismal science.according to this handy overview of the world we're in a bad way

http://www.economist.com/content/global_debt_clock

we seem to have the second most debt per head of population (only iceland is worse off)
just noticed,the japanese are in a league of their own on this one.