Prime Time last night on "Migrant Workers" (1 Viewer)

[jane]

I just watched the podcast of this.

Fucking livid, I am. People didn't even have their fucking facts right. Tony Killeen hasn't a clue what he's talking about because holy hell, NONE of those people they interviewed are eligible for a work permit at all anymore because no longer are non-EU workers allowed in the hospitality industry (and those who are there now will be shipped home once their work permits are up for renewal).

AND you have to make 30,000 a year to qualify in an approved field (which is fairly limited), and anyone else, even if you've set down roots, has to fucking go home. Oh, except nurses, who are exempt from the salary minimum because they can't be bothered to pay nurses properly.

AND you don't fucking hold your work permit until you've been here a year, unless you make over 60,000. But even if you make over 60,000, you'd be unwise to move here if your kids are teenagers because if they haven't been naturalised by the time they turn 18, they have to leave. They say these new laws will help to protect non-EU workers from being exploited by their employers, but it does not. It 'protects' them by shipping them out of here for not being in a high enough tax band.

This new system is ridiculous, and while it makes things easier for new arrivals in the corporate sector, it doesn't do anything for those of us who've been here and are about to be shipped off with degrees we paid double for and which are virtually useless in our home countries.

If a TD goes on a TV show to talk about the laws, you'd think his staff would at least brief him on what the laws actually are.

It's not just the hypocrisy of Irish politicians lobbying for an amnesty for illegal Irish in the US because, well, that's kind of a different issue because it's a different country, and the Irish in the US have an established lobby. I don't give a crap about a few thousand illegal IRish in the US, and I would think it wrong to use them as a bargaining chip. I don't begrudge anyone their right to live in a country where they've set down roots, even if it was maybe not the best idea to begin with to live illegally in a country. I do understand how much a kick in the teeth it is to stay above board all the time -- you're not only not rewarded for it, you're actually punished for giving the authorities more material to put you under scrutiny.

Seriously, there are thousands of people from non-EU countries who are saying goodbye to their loved ones, even people whose paperwork has always been in proper order, because the government has declared them redundant to the Irish economy.

The system is such a mess. I went to a lawyer to help me try to figure out what my rights are. She was really helpful, but it doesn't look good for me. I have another year, but then I'm probably screwed. In order to get a job that paid me the required amount, I'd have to start a new career, but none of the entry-level jobs pay enough to get me over the limit. So no matter how many roots I've set down, I'm done for, and there are definitely thousands of people in the same boat I am. Worse, many of them don't come from countries where they can get decent jobs. At least I can go back to a place where I can make it work. I would just like the freedom to make that choice myself.

I explained today to a few People Who Matter that this is actually going to do some serious damage to the new plans for third- and 'fourth'- level education, especially for humanities degrees. The university can't survive without foreign students, and with degrees, especially MAs now more focused on professional qualifications, they rely on foreign fees to run the courses, but the people paying for them will not be allowed to compete for the same jobs, unless they are ten times as good as their classmates and have specialised skills not taught on the course (because you have to prove that no one from the EU could do the job, and thus you must be more qualified than your classmates).

I'm not sure the people I was talking to realised it, partly because it won't be for a while that this will start to create real problems. If you recruit someone for a PhD in a field where you either have to get an academic job or change careers, you're going to end up with a lot of people who spent four or five years working their butts off, paying over the odds, and being treated like a nuisance, only to be told that they are no longer relevant to the country.

Over the course of an education, foreign students probably pay more in fees, living expenses, and tax on wages (we can work part-time during term time, full-time during college breaks) than the average worker (including €10,000 a year in fees), but only full-time holders of work permits are able to even get a look in when it comes to residency.

Sorry to rant, but these new laws are soul-destroying. I really feel every day I spend here now is a waste of my life, and yet I'm stuck until I finish this bloody thing which, fine, I could leave, but why should I have to? I feel like I can't even say anything publicly for fear I'll be penalised for it.

I'm going to go scream and throw things at the wall now. And shame on Prime-time, too, for not taking the opportunity to clarify what these new laws are. The entire argument is based on a misunderstanding of the law: those hotel workers are not eligible anymore. They've been fucked by their employers, and now the government will happily kick them out rather than deal with the problem.

Christ. Let my screaming commence.

 

[jane]

In case you're interested and didn't see it:

http://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/

 

[pete]

If a TD goes on a TV show to talk about the laws, you'd think his staff would at least brief him on what the laws actually are.

Killeen's not just a TD - he's a junior minister at Enterprise, Trade & Employment. If he needed to be briefed he's probably in the wrong job.

 

[jane]

Killeen's not just a TD - he's a junior minister at Enterprise, Trade & Employment. If he needed to be briefed he's probably in the wrong job.

This is the thing!

UGH, I have a story that I can't tell on the internet about someone else who should know better. But I can't tell it, it's not my story, and it would get the wrong people into hot water.

The fact is, those hotel workers are screwed, and the whole programme made it look like there's a possibility under the new law that they would be allowed to stay and work legally. If they are allowed to stay, then it will be because someone doesn't want egg on his or her face, and fair enough -- they shoudl not be deported. But it won't change the fact that in order for them to be treated like humans, someone would have to defy the law. That makes me really quite ill.

It's common everywhere for employers and universities to be extremely lax about their employees'/students' immigration papers. My poor mammy, because she can't help me here, has taken on the task of being in charge of her staff's immigration papers and work permits. She took over when she realised that the people in charge of them were blisfully unaware of just how much is at stake for a person if someone just 'forgets' to file the papers, or files the wrong ones.

And the problem is, the people who are most affected by it can't vote, so the politicians don't care. If it's too much trouble for an employer, it comes back on the person they're screwing over, not on them, especially if they get shipped out and can't ever hold anyone accountable. Who would they go to, anyway? The immigration authorities? A lawyer they either can't afford, or who is so bogged down with cases that they might not get to theirs in time? A consulate or embassy who is more concerned with making nice with the administration than pissing off the powers that be? Because even though there would be people who wanted to help, what power does the embassy of a small country have against Washington? Not much.

This is why, as bitter a pill as it is to swallow for those of us whose status is in constant peril, the Irish-American lobby is actually a positive step: they actually have a lobby willing to work for their interests. So, while it might be hypocritical of the IRish government to go push for an amnesty, I do know how stressful it is to live as a foreigner with no secure rights, and so it would be twice as hypocritical of me to suggest that they should be denied rights just because other people are. CErtainly, I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for anyone who went to the US from Ireland in the last ten years or so, but I don't begrudge anyone who is willing to make such a sacrifice for a better life.

Anyway, Tony Killeen probably DID know, he just knew it would make more trouble to point out the salary minimum and the narrowed range of eligible jobs. So he was either being disingenuous or ignorant, and neither of those suit a man whose claim to fame is helping violent criminals get out of jail early.

I do think that it suits the government to have the whole immigration situation tied up with the rhetoric of race and diversity. These are absolutely crucial issues, sure, but I think (and maybe I'm overly optimistic) that if people really saw that these new laws put the government one step closer to just being a corporate recruiter, and that it is only economy that matters, most people would realise how everyone suffers when the political, social and economic climate is like this.

 

[Goff]

Anyway, Tony Killeen probably DID know, he just knew it would make more trouble to point out the salary minimum and the narrowed range of eligible jobs. So he was either being disingenuous or ignorant, and neither of those suit a man whose claim to fame is helping violent criminals get out of jail early.

I do think that it suits the government to have the whole immigration situation tied up with the rhetoric of race and diversity.

Of course he knew/knows. It's a part of the "game".

Stop worrying. You'll be grand. I'll hire you and forget to file whatever papers needed to be forgot or else file whatever should be forgotten/used/sold. They'd never deport you. a) thumpedsters won't let them, b) will try to pull strings and c) you'll be married by then to an Oirish bloke you met on the street and they'll give you that "time".

Re that last point....yeah. It's a vote-catcher. It's what they do.

Who do we write to?

 

[Gambra]

I was told to watch this last night by (strangely enough) a member of Socialist Youth. I didn't realise that the laws in all this were so fucked up! Is there no way at all for someone who is declared as being a student to be left out of these brackets or something? It seems pretty much that if your aren't earning anything in the higher tax band yer out. (As you said jane)

Your definately right about the humanities sides of things in colleges being decimated. In my course alone theres about 25% of them are either African or Chinese. If this law comes to fruition (has it already?) all them will eave with degrees which are useless back home. Esp with Humanities having such low entry pay rates, they'll all jusy go do business or something instead.

However, I can see the Universities putting up a huge fight against this scheme because of the fact that each and every non-Irish student pays several thousand euro in fees each and every year. If they all get deported UL alone will definately lose several hundred thousand euro a year. It may even be close to a million. That'll hurt their pockets.

 

[jane]

I was told to watch this last night by (strangely enough) a member of Socialist Youth. I didn't realise that the laws in all this were so fucked up! Is there no way at all for someone who is declared as being a student to be left out of these brackets or something? It seems pretty much that if your aren't earning anything in the higher tax band yer out. (As you said jane)

Your definately right about the humanities sides of things in colleges being decimated. In my course alone theres about 25% of them are either African or Chinese. If this law comes to fruition (has it already?) all them will eave with degrees which are useless back home. Esp with Humanities having such low entry pay rates, they'll all jusy go do business or something instead.

However, I can see the Universities putting up a huge fight against this scheme because of the fact that each and every non-Irish student pays several thousand euro in fees each and every year. If they all get deported UL alone will definately lose several hundred thousand euro a year. It may even be close to a million. That'll hurt their pockets.

I'm not sure the universities will fight this. It's been a problem for a while, and the general attitude is that no one thinks it's their problem. If nothing else, the universities need to make a special effort to help their foreign students get into paid employment, but I can tell you from experience (not just mine) that they don't give a crap. Once they've got the students' fees, they got what they wanted, and the student can sit and spini for all they care.

One of the problems is that the humanities faculties are under such pressure to make themselves look relevant that even if they wanted to concern themselves with the fates of their foreign students, they would barely have the time or energy to put into it. But another problem is a general shift in the universities to a dangerously corporate structure. They seem to think they're becoming Americanised, when they are anything but.

The laws came into effect on the 1st of February and, like all of these dodgy changes to the way the system works, it was done very quietly, and unless someone was prescient enough to check the Dail debates every day, there's no way anyone would have known until it was too late. As of 25th November 2005, non-EU citizens who marry Irish citizens can no longer work without permits. I came across that information by accident, but it was not covered at all in the news, and very few people still know about it. People think it's the foreigners' problem to deal with, but we can't vote, and so politicians are less likely to waste their time.

The worst part is that there is such a lack of sympathy. Outside of the nice conscientious circles I am generally part of, people pretty much use my outlining of the situation as an excuse to attack me for being American (completely ignoring that I also don't particularly like my own country's immigration regulations, and that, in fact, my own experience as a foreigner only serves to highlight the need for fairer systems everywhere), or as a jumping-off point to go on about how if you give a foreigner an inch, he or she will take a mile, and I'll just have to shut up and accept the consequences of someone else's actions. Instead of dealing with the issues and the very real problems these regulations create, it somtimes descends into a 'blame the Nigerians' rant.

Even when I bring up the marriage thing, it's like, "Well, people were abusing it." What, though, is the difference between marrying for a passport and marrying for a tax break? In fact, the government makes more money out of the person who marries for a passport: that person enters the tax system and contributes to the exchequer, resulting in a net gain for the economy, while the person who marries for the tax break results in a net loss. I don't give a crap why someone gets married. It's none of my business. I wouldn't marry for a passport because I would like to get married just the once and for the right reasons, but I wouldn't judge anyone who did.

And Goff, I'm not sure who to write to. The new regulations come under the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, while residency and such matters fall under the Department of Justice.

There are exceptions to the €30,000 minimum, but the fact is, most people aren't even aware of that, and an employer would have to really want to hire you for personal reasons in order to bother going through that mess. They are made on a case-by-case basis, and are very limited. So unless you fit perfectly with the government-determined economic desires, it's personal, it comes down to a personal decision based on a personal relationship.

Work permits are not decided by the employer, either, and it takes up to 14 weeks to process one, and they do not want the worker to be in the country while this happens. So even if you have an Irish degree, you have to move home for months (which is in many cases financially impossible, not to mention needlessly stressful) while someone hems and haws about whether you are economically useful.

The whole diversity thing is great, yes, but what gets left out is the fact that it is predicated on economics. Once you're labelled relevant to the economy, only then can you bring your food and national dress to share with the local community. Foreigners are only allowed to define their/our own contributions to Ireland within the limits defined by the economic need they fulfil.

We have to be twice as relevant, twice as good at what we do, and get someone to pay us more, and still, the government could turn around and restructure the immigrant population in the way a business restructures departments.

So, no, the universities won't take this up, or I'd be very surprised if they did. At least in the case of UCD, the senior admin is more concerned with polishing Hugh Brady's helicopter than it is about the actual needs of students. On paper, they've become more conscientious, but in practice, the very foreign students who are held up as the saviours of the university are about to find themselves sacrificed on the altar of economy.

 

[Gambra]

I can't pretend to know the extents of the law at all but surely theres room to get a sympathetic barrister or lawyer to fight this thing on humanitarian grounds? I really really hate the way that anyone that isn't born and bred Irish is treated with such contempt. If your not a (huge) asset to the economy then yer out. I know you've basically said this in a far more eloquent way above but I just have to say it again..

Ps: what kind of company do you keep that will basically give out to you for being a "foreigner" and then start on the whole illegal immigrants/"blame the nigerians" thing?

 

[Gambra]

I'm going watching this again online.. I'll probably spill more vitrol afterwards.

 

[jane]

I can't pretend to know the extents of the law at all but surely theres room to get a sympathetic barrister or lawyer to fight this thing on humanitarian grounds? I really really hate the way that anyone that isn't born and bred Irish is treated with such contempt. If your not a (huge) asset to the economy then yer out. I know you've basically said this in a far more eloquent way above but I just have to say it again..

Ps: what kind of company do you keep that will basically give out to you for being a "foreigner" and then start on the whole illegal immigrants/"blame the nigerians" thing?

Oh, no, I meant that people apart from those in my regular company will often descend into that, but you'd be surprised how many seemingly reasonable people have absolutely no sympathy for any foreigners at all for any reason. A mate's parents did it to me recently, and I was so upset that I just left rather than end up insulting my friend's ma. It really cuts to the bone, to be honest, and I won't pretend I didn't go home and just bawl my eyes out from frustration. There's no reasoning, and they just state the obvious, like, "Well, why don't you quit whinging and just go get a job?" when, um, I can't. Or that I should just shut up and accept that other people can plan their lives (to an extent, obviously) around what they'd like to do, while I'm stuck making all of my choices based on the limited number of things that I'm currently allowed to do, which could change tomorrow.

And honestly, maybe I'm just being cynical, but I can't imagine a barrister or lawyer taking on the cause of foreign students, who are generally middle-class. I mean, none of us has the money to pursue a case all the way to the High Court, but there really isnt' any sympathy for students, and publicly, there certainly wouldn't be. I dunno. I guess I hope I'm being cynical, but people generally view foreign students as suckers and treat them with disdain, so very few people would champion the cause. And there would be lots of arguments about how there are fewer jobs available than there used to be, and yes, that's true, but if you're going to beg us to come and help support your economy, there has to be something in it for us besides a kick in the neck. It doesn't make sense to deny jobs and legal status to the very people who paid a shitload of money that the universities have openly admitted is necessary for their survival.

I even once got a de-repping on here (dunno from whom) after making some comments about the immigration system. The de-repper said that at least I got a 'very good education' and that I had no right to complain about my situation. So not only do I not have rights, I don't even have the right to say I don't have rights because assumptions are true, but my experience is a big whingey lie. I can't remember exactly, but there was an implication that as an American, I automatically have some kind of free ride in the world, and therefore deserve some kind of punishment. Which is insane because, um, I haven't had an easy go of it but it's really no one's business, nor should it be a factor in whether someone deserves a bit of basic fucking empathy.

And anyway, I didn't get a 'very good education' in Ireland. There are no resources available, and no one gives a fuck about you on any level. The university system is sick, sick, sick. Anyone who manages to get through and get educated out of it deserves not only a degree, but some sort of medal of valor. Seriously, fair dues to the huge number of you that made it through the Irish university system without falling apart.

 

[Gambra]

And anyway, I didn't get a 'very good education' in Ireland. There are no resources available, and no one gives a fuck about you on any level. The university system is sick, sick, sick. Anyone who manages to get through and get educated out of it deserves not only a degree, but some sort of medal of valor. Seriously, fair dues to the huge number of you that made it through the Irish university system without falling apart.

What a great thing to hear when I'm in first year..

Are you planning on staying in Ireland actually?

 

[jane]

What a great thing to hear when I'm in first year..

Are you planning on staying in Ireland actually?

Oh, it's not all bad, but the fact is, so many fantastically intelligent students are sold short by the lack of support that would meet their needs.

As for staying in Ireland, I don't think so. It's just become so unworkable, and in order for it to be legally possible, I'd have to sacrifice a lot of choices that are really important for me. I'll stay for another year or so, but then I think I'm just going to have to give up in order to save what's left of my sense of self-worth. It's very hard to maintain that in a place where, no matter how friends and colleagues treat you and view you, worth to your community, your friends, your colleagues (or potential colleagues) has no bearing on your legal status, which is sometimes in direct conflict with it.

That's the problem with just the term 'migrant worker', it implies a temporary solution to a temporary economic need, and ignores that when people come here, even if it's to take a job as a hotel cleaner (as some of the people on that programme did), they should be treated as human beings, and not as economic units who can be shifted around and made redundant when the country's economic needs change. Redundancy in a job then becomes redundancy to a society.

And as I said before, I'll most likely go back and I can probably make things work. My PhD will be of little use to me, but at least I have a level of education that makes things easier for me wherever I am. As much as I bitch about my personal situation, it makes me wonder how much harder it is for someone who doesn't have the options 'back home' that I might.

My own situation has gone from "I'll try to make it work in Ireland, and I'll leave if I can't" to "I'll probably leave unless a miracle happens." In order for me to be allowed to stay, a lot of people would have to take on a lot of responsibility for making that happen, and that's a hell of a lot to ask. And I wouldn't blame anyone for deciding that it's not worth it, and to just take someone from the EU instead.

 

[Gambra]

Ah damn that really sucks. Its insane that anyone thats in government can consider someone who has completed a PHD to be not deemed worthy to the economy.

 

[jane]

Ah damn that really sucks. Its insane that anyone thats in government can consider someone who has completed a PHD to be not deemed worthy to the economy.

Well, I would be considered relevant if I were in an 'approved' field, with my choices limited, not to what I want to do, but to a very short list of what I'm legally allowed to do. It's kind of nuts.

It's shite for PhD students, but it's at least as shite for people who don't have academic qualifications. I've got options, they are just unlikely to be in Ireland.