The Azerbaijani *something* of Nagorno Karabakh (1 Viewer)

[Unicron]

I can't pretend to remotely know anything about the plight of ethnic Armenians (or Armenian nationals) in Azerbaijan beyond how the issue impacts football (the 2 countries are one of those special cases where the nations can't be drawn against each other in UEFA or FIFA qualifying, when Arsenal played the europa league final in Baku their Armenain player Henrikh Mkhitaryan wouldn't or couldn't travel to play in the match due to security fears) but this current thing seems very very bad.

The Armenians really seem to have a hard time from their neighbours historically.

 

[JohnnyRaz]

I can't pretend to remotely know anything about the plight of ethnic Armenians (or Armenian nationals) in Azerbaijan beyond how the issue impacts football (the 2 countries are one of those special cases where the nations can't be drawn against each other in UEFA or FIFA qualifying, when Arsenal played the europa league final in Baku their Armenain player Henrikh Mkhitaryan wouldn't or couldn't travel to play in the match due to security fears) but this current thing seems very very bad.

The Armenians really seem to have a hard time from their neighbours historically.

I wasn't that aware until recently about the issue to be honest.

I've been reading a bit recently about the growth of nationalism (as a concept) throughout the 19century - and the development of the (then fairly novel) ideal of a fairly mono-cultural/ethnic nation state.

Its execution as big multi-ethnic empires disintegrated seems to have caused as much suffering as the creation of those empires in the first cases - and thrown up many situations of 'enclaves' of one nationality in the midst of another

 

[ann post]

It doesn't sound like something distinct to the 19th century IMHO.

 

[JohnnyRaz]

It doesn't sound like something distinct to the 19th century IMHO.

in an absolute sense in that those of a similar ethnic group should live together and have varying degrees of autonomy over their affairs, it wasn't unique

but in the sense it was envisaged and proposed from the early 1800s onwards was distinct, as it wove modern concepts of popular sovereignty and the modern concept of what a nation state, as opposed to a kingdom, duchy or whatever in.

 

[ann post]

in an absolute sense in that those of a similar ethnic group should live together and have varying degrees of autonomy over their affairs, it wasn't unique

but in the sense it was envisaged and proposed from the early 1800s onwards was distinct, as it wove modern concepts of popular sovereignty and the modern concept of what a nation state, as opposed to a kingdom, duchy or whatever in.

I dunno man.
I've been listening to the history of the world podcast for a year. Stuff like this has been rolling along since the city states 1000's BCE. Like sparta functioned as a nation with nationalism (and some shitty treatment of other nations).

 

[JohnnyRaz]

Good explainer...

How Armenia and Azerbaijan’s conflict could still destabilize the region

The latest struggle over Nagorno-Karabakh, a majority-Armenian enclave in Azerbaijan, will ripple throughout the region.

www.vox.com

 

[JohnnyRaz]

I dunno man.
I've been listening to the history of the world podcast for a year. Stuff like this has been rolling along since the city states 1000's BCE. Like sparta functioned as a nation with nationalism (and some shitty treatment of other nations).

I'd agree and disagree with you... there's parallels to pretty much everything in history.

democracy isn't a new concept - but how its formulated in the modern world, and the influence of it as an ideal is different than how the athenians conceptualized it.

nationalism in the 19th century was a distinct ideology (although often drawing on older models, or real or imagined conceptions of past nations etc), and how the 19c nationalists defined a nation state has informed how the world looks like today to a significant extent.

 

[Cornu Ammonis]

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Fun fact: That’s me in the first shot watching Unruh bash the spring.

 

[nuke terrorist]

the Nagorno Karabakh conflict got a lot of attention after the fall of the USSR - circa 1992.
I remember Turkey closed its border with Armenia in solidarity with fellow Turkic country Azerbaijan.
the problem with Armenian enclave never went away but never got the same coverage again. until now.

 

[Deadmanposting]

the Nagorno Karabakh conflict got a lot of attention after the fall of the USSR - circa 1992.
I remember Turkey closed its border with Armenia in solidarity with fellow Turkic country Azerbaijan.
the problem with Armenian enclave never went away but never got the same coverage again. until now.

Yeah, it's been going on for forever (in my memory)

It's basically ethnic cleansing right now - they've shipped all the Armenians out if what I hear on the news is right

This is how lucky we are in Ireland that we're not murdering each other anymore

 

[nuke terrorist]

Yeah, it's been going on for forever (in my memory)

It's basically ethnic cleansing right now - they've shipped all the Armenians out if what I hear on the news is right

This is how lucky we are in Ireland that we're not murdering each other anymore

Armenians have a really tragic history...

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

From what I can gather both sides often chose the worst thing to do whenever they had the upper hand. Like, Armenians committed massacres during the war and occupied big chunks of Azerbaijan from which all the Azeris fled much the same way the Armenians are fleeing now.

Armenia and Azerbaijan didn't really exist as anything like countries until they came into existence in a fairly haphazard way after 1917 and even then they only had a few years before they became soviet. Before that the whole region was very ethnically mixed as evidenced by NK existing in a largely Azeri area, Nakhchivan existing as an Azeri exclave on the far side of Armenia and really mixed populations all over the region that co-existed relatively well for a long time when they didn't have their own nations. Baku used have a very big Armenian population which was generally better off and more powerful than the Azeris there. Now the memory of co-existence is almost lost.

Note: may contain factual inaccuracies

 

[nuke terrorist]

yeah - at the time of genocide Armenians were living all over Turkey in numbers.
more of a large ethnic group than a small country

 

[JohnnyRaz]

yeah - at the time of genocide Armenians were living all over Turkey in numbers.
more of a large ethnic group than a small country

Not too long after the genocide the Greeks and the Turks themselves went to great lengths to move/expel huge numbers of ethnically Greek Orthodox and Turkish people from parts of the former Ottoman Empire to make the modern Turkish and Greek nations, they simply and plainly called it the ‘transfer of populations’. Mad stuff

Population exchange between Greece and Turkey - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[taubstumm]

the title is a bit sensationalist but I thought this was a decent read for outlining some of the basics. the zangezur corridor rail link details were helpful.

Armenia’s Bleak Future Thanks to US Neocons | naked capitalism

US actions will only push other regional actors closer together, isolate Armenia, and likely lead to further territory losses for Yerevan. But at least the neocons scored a temporary PR victory.

www.nakedcapitalism.com

 

[ann post]

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[hydromancer]

As I would understand it the problem basically is that the current Armenian Azerbaijan border was drawn by Soviet Russia. I forget the name for it but there was a system in place to redress exactly such issues after the end of Soviet Union which was suggested but never implemented in this case.
The Turkish genocide against against Armenians I think mostly revolved during WW1 around fears that ethnic Armenians might be armed by outside interests against the Ottoman state with most deaths occurring during a long march through the desert.

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

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[Scientician 0.8]

Whatever about Artsakh, the Azerbaijanis won't stop at it. They already removed upwards of 100,000 people with roots in the area going back centuries. They're rooting to wipe Armenia off the map. Unfortunately, the Israelis have backed the Azerbaijanis. Feels a bit like sowing seeds they might not want to reap.

I'm just amazed that a quasi-state in Europe can be wiped off the map and barely a bit of chatter in the Western European media and political class.

The cynic in me is also surprised that American right wing Christians haven't latched on to the fact that Christian countries (older than Irish Christianity) are being wiped off the map by predominantly Muslim countries. I'm not going to be the one to tell them though. Mother of God.