Official Thumped position on Lisbon (2 Viewers)

[broken arm]

Dunno - it's all so vague. I'm actually more annoyed at the yes campaign this time around. 'Vote YES for jobs' is an outright lie.
Vote YES so that we don't get sidelined 10 years down the line would be more honest.

The issue of sovereignty seems the most contentious but at this moment in time I wouldn't mind a few years of being governed by the French or Germans

he he. ooo lala mein liebling..

It is vague but the way I have understood the "vote for jobs" is that business requires some stability (espcially in a time of crisis) and there is concern in "the market" about the outcome of Lisbon and the political confusion and upheaval it will cause.

to give a very practical example. From time to time I have to work with companies on environmental legislation/policy. These include things like the European WEEE, RoHS and EuP directives. These can be difficult for companies to comply with at the best of times but where it gets really confusing is if the company exports their products/services to other member states. If the otehr country has decided to implement a directive differently it can cause problems (different paperwork, procedures etc). They want to know that there is good relationship between member states so issues can be ironed out quicker, better co-operation etc.

That example is on the micro-level but the issue gets bigger. As i said, what companies want is clarity. They want to know if they are going to invest in something (new factories, new office locations, new jobs) that the political and legal infrastructure is going to remain somewhat coherent in teh short, medium and long term.

I have a cousin that works with the IDA. His job is to travel around the world and encourage businesses to set up in Ireland. They are already finding it difficult because of the current perception of uncertainty in ireland.

The IDA are saying - "come to ireland, give jobs to our people and we'll sort you out" and the companies are saying "we'll we haven't a clue who is going to be in government in the near future and we don't have a clue what your relationship will be with the rest of Europe, which may be our biggest market"

 

[Unicron]

I think the difficulty with this is that what the treaty does doesn't have the same impact on Joe Public's day to day life as with other treaty referenda, Nice had a similar problem. Long term it may or may not have major ramifications (positive or not) on us but it's somewhat hard to zero in on immediate tangible effects.

It's not like Maastrict which meant the freedom to move and work in other member states and it eventually put a new currency in our pockets. And because it's hard to zero in on things like that it's easy to twist things about it.

 

[broken arm]

I think the difficulty with this is that what the treaty does doesn't have the same impact on Joe Public's day to day life as with other treaty referenda, Nice had a similar problem. Long term it may or may not have major long term ramifications (positive or not) on us but it's somewhat hard to zero in on immediate tangible effects.

It's not like Maastrict which meant the freedom to move and work in other member states and it eventually put a new currency in our pockets. And because it's hard to zero in on things like that it's easy to twist things about it.

spot on.

I really would have like to see a project like "Making Policy Public" get involved

http://www.makingpolicypublic.net/index.php

 

[xrockridgex]

I think the main problem on both sides has been the fact that the arguments being made make perfect sense to those making them, as they flow directly from those groups perception of the EU. So once those arguments are introduced to the general public and a debate is meant to be engaged in, the two sides are talking past each other completely.

On the No side, it makes perfect sense if you are a socialist that Lisbon will militarise Europe and possibly lead to an EU army because you believe that the capitalist elite use war to control resources and maintain their own power. It also makes sense if you are a Christian/Coir type of activist, given the treaty doesn't mention god, which means it might lead to abortion and other ungodly things.

On the Yes side, it makes perfect sense that business will lose confidence in Ireland and that a two speed EU with us in the fast lane is possible as the parties and groups making those arguments are the ones who also operate in Brussels and saw the massive uncertainty that arose from the first vote.

So the debate has been so appalling because the two sides have completely different frames of reference. Plus everyone thinks they are Karl Rove and can motivate people to vote by appealing to their base instincts.

 

[broken arm]

I think the main problem on both sides has been the fact that the arguments being made make perfect sense to those making them, as they flow directly from those groups perception of the EU. So once those arguments are introduced to the general public and a debate is meant to be engaged in, the two sides are talking past each other completely.

that is true for life and all politics though.

We'd never get anywhere if everyone had to define their epistemological and ontological positions/frames

 

[broken arm]

that is true for life and all politics though.

We'd never get anywhere if everyone had to define their epistemological and ontological positions/frames

actually, maybe we would get everywhere???

 

[krossie]

Broken arm:

actually, maybe we would get everywhere???

Zing!!

philosophical humour - me likey

Actually I always thought it would be great if everyone on the media had a huge bias bubble recounting their particulars:

Sample:

Mark Little RTE
former labour party member, slightly left of centre, failed reader of Hegel - large ego...

At least with "extremists" of left and right you know where they stand - I don't think the media is ever unbiased
- but an honest statement of bias is a start...

Krossie (Anarcho (semi-retired)/Nietzschian truth perspectivist)!

 

[xrockridgex]

that is true for life and all politics though.

Well that is true in general but the effect here is even more confusing for people as the EU is not something too many people know a whole lot about. So when the No side are flinging about horrible things that will happen and the Yes side are talking about the possible benefits then there is massive confusion because few people are au fait with what the powers of the Union are and what they will be under Lisbon.

 

[Danny_Mc]

In Cork....

 

[Milker]

there are no listed gains to ireland in passing the treaty, save offsetting the threat of unofficial isolation. Any statements that benefits(jobs, recovery, sick notes) will flow to us if we vote 'yes' are as legitimate as statements that the minimum wage will be reduced to €1.84...they both fail to use the word 'might' in place of 'will'...

Politics.ie
Irish Government are obliged to offer all work for tender,Lets say A company from one of the many of the countries that have a 1.84 min wage wins the contract and imports workers from its own country and pays the parent companies countries min wage
It has already happened, see the Laval case where the ECJ ok'ed the practice and more recently with an Italian co. in the UK

The Yes campaign and especially those from the alleged left in Ireland would rather these subjects weren't aired and if they are a torrent of abuse usually follows

Its why so many Trade Unionists are luke warm on the treaty, in private if not in Public

But just to summarise, it is very possible for an employee to work on the geographical territory of Ireland and be paid 1.84 an hour........... anyone who says it isn't is lying

Anyway is this treaty about whats best for ireland or for europe?

ps. if y'ask me there are two europes...the one with all the real people in it and the one that waits for an 'offer-you-can't-refuse' erotic phone call from henry kissinger or such. Politicians are hard-wired to be devoted to the latter...the former, being had by the balls, will follow, eventually.

 

[Froog]

with the 1.84 rubbish, there isn't even a "might" tho, The EU has not currently, nor will it under Lisbon, any power over the minimum wages of member states. Ireland’s minimum wage was set down in Irish law under the National Minimum Wage Act 2000, and the EU can do nothing to change thisIn fact Lisbon provides for even greater social protection than is currently guaranteed in EU law.

 

[Milker]

with the 1.84 rubbish, there isn't even a "might" tho, The EU has not currently, nor will it under Lisbon, any power over the minimum wages of member states. Ireland’s minimum wage was set down in Irish law under the National Minimum Wage Act 2000, and the EU can do nothing to change thisIn fact Lisbon provides for even greater social protection than is currently guaranteed in EU law.

you know what...i stand corrected...totally useless homework done there..thought the GAMA turkish workers were a case in point but GAMA were penalised....carry on.

 

[Unicron]

you know what...i stand corrected...totally useless homework done there..thought the GAMA turkish workers were a case in point but GAMA were penalised....carry on.

What about the other things that you quoted? The Lavel case the the UK/Italian thing?

 

[pete]

http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/lis...ry-labels-no-groups-unemployable-headbangers/

 

[Milker]

What about the other things that you quoted? The Lavel case the the UK/Italian thing?

i only know that the LAVAL thing occured in a memeber state that has no constitutionally protected min wage so theres a collective bargaining the worker groups have to engage in and in this case the European Court ruled more or less that the workers were bound to the company's domestic min wage and had no legal recourse to industrial action...i think thats the bones of it.

can't happen here tho coz our min wage right is protected.

i guess other countries should sort out their min wage rights.

the UK/Italian thing was just in the politics.ie cut'n'paste.

still voting no mind you.

 

[Milker]

http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/lis...ry-labels-no-groups-unemployable-headbangers/

Never one to mix his words, O’Leary said our incompetent political elite had shattered the country’s competitiveness and created “an explosion of expensive, useless, self-sustaining quangos”.

its 'mince' his words, right??

'deregulation' is the thrust of his plus-points.

the governmental incompetence argument is strong w this one...noticed Kevin Myers is voting Yes in a 'baby out w the bathwater' way...less power in the hands of perpetual incompetence.

 

[Unicron]

i only know that the LAVAL thing occured in a memeber state that has no constitutionally protected min wage so theres a collective bargaining the worker groups have to engage in and in this case the European Court ruled more or less that the workers were bound to the company's domestic min wage and had no legal recourse to industrial action...i think thats the bones of it.

can't happen here tho coz our min wage right is protected.

i guess other countries should sort out their min wage rights.

the UK/Italian thing was just in the politics.ie cut'n'paste.

still voting no mind you.

Ah right, I'd been suspicious of that minimum wage thing as my understanding of existing legislation is that regardless of the country of origin of the employer or employee anyone working in this jurisdiction is entitled to the same rights/minimum wage.

 

[Milker]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0918/1224254794768.html

anyone know where shane ross is on this this time round?

 

[hugh]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0918/1224254794768.html

anyone know where shane ross is on this this time round?

That guy Allwright has been writing letters to the Irish Times for years. He's basically a neo-conservative right winger. Check out, for example, his views on Israel/Palestine ...

http://www.tallrite.com/weblog/archives/may09.htm#What_a_Palestinian_State_Will_Look_Like

Charming stuff. He also has a counter on this blog that counts how many people have been killed by "Islamic Terrorists" since 9/11. He seems to be suggesting that Gordon Brown in in league with said terrorists. Or something.

 

[Milker]

That guy Allwright has been writing letters to the Irish Times for years. He's basically a neo-conservative right winger. Check out, for example, his views on Israel/Palestine ...

http://www.tallrite.com/weblog/archives/may09.htm#What_a_Palestinian_State_Will_Look_Like

Charming stuff. He also has a counter on this blog that counts how many people have been killed by "Islamic Terrorists" since 9/11. He seems to be suggesting that Gordon Brown in in league with said terrorists. Or something.

yuk!

won't be voting for tony so