Official Thumped position on Lisbon (1 Viewer)

[Unicron]

dude, thats not the point at all....look, just pick some other referendum-requiring issue like tax and answer my question....is it not perfectly plausible that the 'Good Will' card could be played again in future referenda??

My unerstanding is that there won't be any future EU referenda if this is passed.

 

[hugh]

My unerstanding is that there won't be any future EU referenda if this is passed.

I don't think this is quite true, though it's very hard get to the bottom of it. Article 48 covers how revisions to the Treaty may be carried out and contains an ordinary revision procedure and a revised revision procedure. Both of these clearly state that amendments will only enter into force "after being ratified by member states in accordance with their constitutional requirements".

However it then goes on (part 7) to say that in cases where the Treaty allows for the Council to "act by unanimity in a given area or case, the European council may adopt a decision authorising the Council to act by a qualified majority in that area of case". I take this to mean that there are some defined areas or cases where amendments to the Treaty can be made by the Council without recourse to referenda but I have no idea what these areas or cases might be. It does clearly state that they are nothing to with defence or the military though. Also, any national parliment has a six month period in which they can simply voice their opposition to any such proposal and it is automatically dropped. If no opposition is voiced then it has to have unaminous approval by the Council and majority approval by the European parliment before it is passed.

So, my interpretation of this would be that there are certain minor changes to the actual Treaty that can be made by the EU itself, but significant ones would require recourse to the usual constitutional routes, and certainly any new treaty in the future would do also.

I'm boring myself now.

 

[Milker]

were are these polls that say good will is the reason people give for voting yes?

never mentioned polls and i'd say there are none...i said 'people say' coz i've heard plenty of people site fortifying our influence and 'good-will' as a 'no-nonsense' reason to vote yes...i take it you have never heard anything of this on the air nor seen it in print which is what makes it impossible for you to discuss the point of holding a nations sovereign referendum to ransom with such an ethereal albeit important consideration.

anyway, best find one of them and ask them the question. i don't think "good will" to be good enough reason to vote yes

alot of big guns do:

“A No vote will cost Ireland. Ireland will lose influence and goodwill among our EU partners which is vital to achieving our goals in the EU. There is no cost-free rejection of the Lisbon Treaty.” - Minister Martin Cullen

Indeed, the Oireachtas Sub-Committee on Ireland's Future in the European Union observed in its survey of our engagement with the Union that we have painstakingly built-up a reservoir of goodwill towards Ireland through our constructive approach to EU affairs.- http://www.lisbontreaty.ie/whitepaper/intro.asp

Another No vote would result in “a marginalisation of influence and a loss of goodwill” towards Ireland within the EU and where the 10 new member states were concerned.- Tom Arnold, chief executive of Concern

Within the EU, Ireland will retain good will; which has been of great help to us in the past, such as the recent pork meat crisis. EU good will is essential in helping us get through our present crisis, particularly in respect of continued ECB support for our banking system.- http://www.irishelection.com/2009/09/the-lisbon-treaty-the-consequences-of-yes-or-no/

Dr. Michael Woods T. D. Chairman of the Joint Foreign Affairs Committee said today that for Ireland to fail to ratify the Lisbon Treaty would cost us valuable GOODWILL built up over 35 years of EU membership.- http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewpda.as...ate=01 January 2008&OrderAscending=0&mypage=2

The only way to ensure that Ireland has the best representation is by this country continuing to be a wholehearted EU member – at the centre of European integration and continuing to forge alliances with other member states, built on goodwill and mutual understanding.- Ireland for Europe Campaign Director, Pat Cox

Ireland needs the good will and cohesion of Europe at this critical time.- Richard Bruton, Fine Gael

i put it to you that it is the yes sides most effective and galvenising appeal to peoples fears...and i reckon its good for any other Irish referendum that threatens to cramp the EU's style.

 

[hugh]

i put it to you that it is the yes sides most effective and galvenising appeal to peoples fears...and i reckon its good for any other Irish referendum that threatens to cramp the EU's style.

Well the No side are hardly innocent of playing to people's fears either are they? Vote No or the EU will impose lower wages. Vote NO or worker's rights will be decimated. Etc etc ....

 

[Milker]

Well the No side are hardly innocent of playing to people's fears either are they? Vote No or the EU will impose lower wages. Vote NO or worker's rights will be decimated. Etc etc ....

but the No side are saying, however incorrectly, that lower wages, workers rights diminuition(!ninjaaaa) are part of the treaty, that the treaty will allow these things to happen. They'd not be bonus effects of voting 'yes'..the argument there is w the treaty.
the Yes sides promise of no-one liking us anymore is a punitive effect of not choosing 'correctly'...theres nothing in the treaty to say we will lose 'goodwill' and the yes side would admit that too...but the threat is still there...still real.

IF I'm right, is that not worrying?

 

[broken arm]

i tell you one thing about this lisbon shite..

I've never had to disagree so much with people I normally agree with.

 

[Milker]

i tell you one thing about this lisbon shite..

I've never had to disagree so much with people I normally agree with.

after this over i reckon the irish will be walking experts on EU procedure in an otherwise apathetic europe.

 

[broken arm]

after this over i reckon the irish will be walking experts on EU procedure in an otherwise apathetic europe.

I don't know - I think the Irish just like to talk but there is an awful lot of bull floating around.

 

[Milker]

I don't know - I think the Irish just like to talk but there is an awful lot of bull floating around.

and what, if not that, is politics about?

just thought that we've been forced to look at the 'site-map' of the Eu Parliament and to query the limits of national and supernational competences..for a tome of a treaty i reckon we've done some fairly respectable bull-sifting.

 

[ann post]

is anyone patient enough to do a summary of this thread, i cant keep up with you lads at all. i'm talking 40 words here, highlighting the valid stuff for either side of the coin. it would be lovely.

 

[broken arm]

is anyone patient enough to do a summary of this thread, i cant keep up with you lads at all. i'm talking 40 words here, highlighting the valid stuff for either side of the coin. it would be lovely.

http://www.wordle.net/show/wrdl/1160676/Untitled

 

[Froog]

is anyone patient enough to do a summary of this thread, i cant keep up with you lads at all. i'm talking 40 words here, highlighting the valid stuff for either side of the coin. it would be lovely.

yes side: capitalist pigs
no side: lefty conspiracy nuts

 

[Unicron]

yes side: capitalist pigs
no side: lefty conspiracy nuts

HEY. Coir are righty conspiracy nuts.

 

[Froog]

HEY. Coir are righty conspiracy nuts.

all the others are tho

 

[platters]

is anyone patient enough to do a summary of this thread, i cant keep up with you lads at all. i'm talking 40 words here, highlighting the valid stuff for either side of the coin. it would be lovely.

IMO, the key is that the Lisbon Treaty is about implementing new decision making capabilities to tackle important issues and capacity to solve those issues. The question then arises, is this a good thing in your opinion?

Yes,

The EU is good for Europe and is good for Ireland, voting yes will make the EU work better by balancing voting weights within the EU parliament, help with accession countries entry into the EU and give the EU a better legal footing to deploy 'peace keeping' forces.

No,

The EU is not accountable enough and should to be more democratic, Irish voting weight is decreased under Lisbon and the accession countries entry may lead to erosion of our 'cultural values'. Enabling an EU army may lead to empirical actions.

 

[broken arm]

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[pete]

debate on TodayFM is comedy gold

 

[Scientician 0.8]

The EU is not accountable enough and should to be more democratic, Irish voting weight is decreased under Lisbon and the accession countries entry may lead to erosion of our 'cultural values'. Enabling an EU army may lead to empirical actions.

Empirical?

 

[broken arm]

i just switched on and for the first time of my life I heard Minister Martin get passionate and angry.

I hope he kicks ganley in the fuck.

 

[broken arm]

modren eireland