Official Thumped position on Lisbon (2 Viewers)

[Scientician 0.8]

That guy Allwright has been writing letters to the Irish Times for years. He's basically a neo-conservative right winger. Check out, for example, his views on Israel/Palestine ...

http://www.tallrite.com/weblog/archives/may09.htm#What_a_Palestinian_State_Will_Look_Like

Charming stuff. He also has a counter on this blog that counts how many people have been killed by "Islamic Terrorists" since 9/11. He seems to be suggesting that Gordon Brown in in league with said terrorists. Or something.

But what of what he said about the Lisbon Treaty, is he right?

 

[hugh]

But what of what he said about the Lisbon Treaty, is he right?

I've no idea. I didn't read it. I don't have any interest in what he thinks about anything.

 

[Froog]

here's indymedia's top reasons to vote no, incredibly vague rubbish:

The Lisbon Treaty:

1. is an incomprehensible constitution, therefore by most voters it can only be signed in blind faith
(note: most of the advocates of the treaty admit that they have NOT read the text.)
2. as a constitution entails the loss of national sovereignty
3. is a constitution designed to cheat us and avoid referendums
4. is implemented via a profoundly undemocratic process
5. is a profoundly undemocratic constitution laying down the foundation of an undemocratic federal state, with the unelected Commission on the top of the decision-making hierarchy
6. for smaller EU countries like Ireland, means a radical loss of the voters' influence on the nationally elected EU-bodies
7. means the loss of permanent representation in the Commission
8. has an alternative: the EUDemocrats.


http://www.indymedia.ie/article/87518

 

[pete]

here's indymedia's top reasons to vote no, incredibly vague rubbish:

The Lisbon Treaty:

1. is an incomprehensible constitution, therefore by most voters it can only be signed in blind faith
(note: most of the advocates of the treaty admit that they have NOT read the text.)
2. as a constitution entails the loss of national sovereignty
3. is a constitution designed to cheat us and avoid referendums
4. is implemented via a profoundly undemocratic process
5. is a profoundly undemocratic constitution laying down the foundation of an undemocratic federal state, with the unelected Commission on the top of the decision-making hierarchy
6. for smaller EU countries like Ireland, means a radical loss of the voters' influence on the nationally elected EU-bodies
7. means the loss of permanent representation in the Commission
8. has an alternative: the EUDemocrats.


http://www.indymedia.ie/article/87518

well, it's more accurate to say that it's someone called Howard Holby's list

 

[Scientician 0.8]

So what is the Official Thumped position on Lisbon? The result of the poll?

 

[Milker]

here's indymedia's top reasons to vote no, incredibly vague rubbish:

The Lisbon Treaty:

1. is an incomprehensible constitution, therefore by most voters it can only be signed in blind faith
(note: most of the advocates of the treaty admit that they have NOT read the text.)
2. as a constitution entails the loss of national sovereignty
3. is a constitution designed to cheat us and avoid referendums
4. is implemented via a profoundly undemocratic process
5. is a profoundly undemocratic constitution laying down the foundation of an undemocratic federal state, with the unelected Commission on the top of the decision-making hierarchy
6. for smaller EU countries like Ireland, means a radical loss of the voters' influence on the nationally elected EU-bodies
7. means the loss of permanent representation in the Commission
8. has an alternative: the EUDemocrats.


http://www.indymedia.ie/article/87518

tis dated May 13th 2008...small point but I'm sure this was for Lisbon 1 and to be honest the lack of clarity the first time round was not the fault of the No side and justified many of the suspicions espoused above.

 

[broken arm]

so. did anyone get that leaflet that was sent by UKIPs new group in the European Parliament?

I saw it the other day. I especially like the representation of Turkey as an actual Turkey.

I did some reading up on the group that sent the leaflet. It's mostly made up of UKIP goons and some other seriously right wing parties from around Europe (not ireland).

It's nice to know that they are willing to spend tens of thousands on a constitutional vote in Ireland.

nice chaps.

 

[Milker]

so. did anyone get that leaflet that was sent by UKIPs new group in the European Parliament?

I saw it the other day. I especially like the representation of Turkey as an actual Turkey.

I did some reading up on the group that sent the leaflet. It's mostly made up of UKIP goons and some other seriously right wing parties from around Europe (not ireland).

It's nice to know that they are willing to spend tens of thousands on a constitutional vote in Ireland.

nice chaps.

'snot this one?

 

[ernesto]

 

[ratmonkey]

Great headline.

IBEC: Minimum wage posters rotten to the 'Coir'

 

[Milker]

Here...you know that 'good will' that we stand to lose if we reject the treaty?
Can the threat of losing that good will be used in the future too, like say if a need arose for us to have a referendum on our position on neutrality and lets say The Brussels Boys have a preferred outcome...wouldn't it just be as plausible to say to the irish people 'We're only being asked to make a small change in exchange for the upkeep of the 'good will' that Lisbon nearly cost us.'

I mean the good will has nothing to do w the treaty of Lisbon but it's one of the top reasons people say they'll vote yes....it's a trump card w a small, scared nation.

 

[GO]

Is it actually impossible to know which way to vote?

 

[Milker]

Is it actually impossible to know which way to vote?

you're not being asked to vote one way or another, Snr Gaz...you're being 'asked' to approve.

 

[IFF]

So what is the Official Thumped position on Lisbon? The result of the poll?

sadly, i think we need a 2/3rd's majority like the green party for it to be binding

Here...you know that 'good will' that we stand to lose if we reject the treaty?
Can the threat of losing that good will be used in the future too, like say if a need arose for us to have a referendum on our position on neutrality and lets say The Brussels Boys have a preferred outcome...wouldn't it just be as plausible to say to the irish people 'We're only being asked to make a small change in exchange for the upkeep of the 'good will' that Lisbon nearly cost us.'

I mean the good will has nothing to do w the treaty of Lisbon but it's one of the top reasons people say they'll vote yes....it's a trump card w a small, scared nation.

do you think we are the only country in the EU who value. Whatabout the swedish, finnish, maltese and austrians?

if the eu threatened us about our nutraility, it'd be a mutiny from the other 4 neutral countries

 

[Wölflinge]

This thread is too long for me to read all the way through so sorry if someone has brought this up already, but can anyone tell if we vote yes that they might one day change the laws surrounding abortion here?

This link says otherwise...
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0529/eulisbon.html

But why do all the No-ers insist on screaming about it on their fliers all the time?
What if I want our abortion laws to be changed?
Has anyone got a clue what the story is?

 

[IFF]

This thread is too long for me to read all the way through so sorry if someone has brought this up already, but can anyone tell if we vote yes that they might one day change the laws surrounding abortion here?

This link says otherwise...
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0529/eulisbon.html

But why do all the No-ers insist on screaming about it on their fliers all the time?
What if I want our abortion laws to be changed?
Has anyone got a clue what the story is?

because the coir group are trying to scare people into voting no.

does it think we are the only bastion of abortion free country in the cesspool of the EU?

hell no. Poland and Spain have extremely similar abortion laws to us while Malta think our abortion laws are far too liberal in allowing abortions when the mothers life is in danger

 

[Milker]

do you think we are the only country in the EU who value. Whatabout the swedish, finnish, maltese and austrians?

if the eu threatened us about our nutraility, it'd be a mutiny from the other 4 neutral countries

dude, thats not the point at all....look, just pick some other referendum-requiring issue like tax and answer my question....is it not perfectly plausible that the 'Good Will' card could be played again in future referenda??
sure we have the soveirgn right to hold a referendum but if our betters have a desired outcome they could declare our 'favour-basking' period would come to an end should we vote contre-Brussels.

 

[therealjohnny]

if the eu threatened us about our nutraility, it'd be a mutiny from the other 4 neutral countries

http://www.gotfuturama.com/Multimedia/EpisodeSounds/2ACV02/03.mp3

 

[Milker]

This thread is too long for me to read all the way through so sorry if someone has brought this up already, but can anyone tell if we vote yes that they might one day change the laws surrounding abortion here?

This link says otherwise...
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0529/eulisbon.html

But why do all the No-ers insist on screaming about it on their fliers all the time?
What if I want our abortion laws to be changed?
Has anyone got a clue what the story is?

the abortion laws cannot be changed here w/out a dedicated referendum.

 

[IFF]

dude, thats not the point at all....look, just pick some other referendum-requiring issue like tax and answer my question....is it not perfectly plausible that the 'Good Will' card could be played again in future referenda??
sure we have the soveirgn right to hold a referendum but if our betters have a desired outcome they could declare our 'favour-basking' period would come to an end should we vote contre-Brussels.

were are these polls that say good will is the reason people give for voting yes?

anyway, best find one of them and ask them the question. i don't think "good will" to be good enough reason to vote yes