Official Thumped position on Lisbon (1 Viewer)

[Milker]

cowen on primetime last night was asked what happens if we vote no again...he basically said that nothing would happen immediately but 5 or 10 years down the line we would feel the effects of lack of help in getting outta the hole we is in, is what i think he was implying...and that the no-side have not presented one positive reason to vote no.

i can't give him one

the 'positive' changes to the workings of the union being introduced are significant enough to have warranted us under our constitution to hold a referendum and, in its former incarnation (the EU Constitution), to be put to the people of europe. We have caused the issue of popular participation in the fundamental maturing of the ambitions of the union to be raised...why are we being 'strenuously encouraged'(bullied) to swallow something first packaged as 'harmless', then as 'good-for-us', now as 'economy-medicine'..for me it has always been about 'people have the power of responsibility' and whatever the consequences of our collective lack of wisdom it is still a declaration of our social maturity and we should refuse to be spared that..this treaty, or parts of its proposals, should've been put to the population of europe...thats whats fueling the fires of mistrust...all that abortion/min wage/conscription stuff was way too readily presented as the reason for the rejection and thats a real shame....those issues didn't create the mistrust; the leaders created the mistrust. The people don't trust the leaders; the leaders don't trust the people.

the last no-vote was an opportunity to smack the govt in the face...very foolish, very neccesary. Democracy is, as the french say, dangereux(???)

so now the institutional changes are irrelevant..the participation issue is irrelevant...now it's 'vote yes coz thats what the EU wants..and the EU are guaranteeing our economic recovery.

 

[platters]

I'm a swing voter at this stage, but here's 2 positive reasons to vote No as far as I can see,

Try to affect a change to a more transparent and democratic EU

Get FF out of power

Also, there should be no repercussions to Ireland if we vote no, that is not the way the EU is set up. Anyway if there is, we should vote No on principle because that is a kind of bullying.

 

[broken arm]

I'm a swing voter at this stage, but here's 2 positive reasons to vote No as far as I can see,

Try to affect a change to a more transparent and democratic EU

i totally agree with the need for transparency/democracy but I don't see how voting NO will do this.

I haven't heard anyone from the NO side explain what their vision for the future of Europe is, how they are going to make this happen and how I, as a citizen, can get involved and support this.

I am an advocate of people creating alternative futures independant of mainstream politics - civil society groups, social enterprises, fourth sector enterprises, autonomous communities, creative networks, non-aligned freaks, and what ever. These don't always mesh with the EU elephant but I can't see anything in the Lisbon vision for Europe preventing these from doing whatever it is they want to do.

p.s. we should have a Lisbon ban in Paris.

 

[aoboa]

I haven't read this thread yet...
... but has anyone got one solid reason to vote yes?

I am being serious - looking for one good reason.

 

[hugh]

Get FF out of power

That's going to happen within the next year anyway, regardless of what happens with Lisbon.

 

[broken arm]

I haven't read this thread yet...
... but has anyone got one solid reason to vote yes?

I am being serious - looking for one good reason.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9_kpc7zjZM"]YouTube - Limmy.com: Yes or No[/ame]

 

[Froog]

people shouldn't treat this as a referendum on fianna fail.

 

[pete]

This report represents an independent analysis of the economic impacts of
Ireland’s forthcoming decision in relation to the Lisbon Treaty. Specifically,
it represents the views of leading independent, non-government academic
and research economists in Ireland on the economic implications of Ireland’s
vote on the Lisbon Treaty. It is important to note that the main
counterfactuals relate to the likely impacts arising from an acceptance or
rejection by Ireland of the Lisbon Treaty. This may differ from the impact of
a position whereby the Lisbon Treaty was never proposed. As a result, some
economists believe that a ‘Yes’ vote might not dramatically improve the
prospects for the Irish economy but as one Irish economist suggested to the
survey, “a No vote would have very negative consequences compared to the
status quo”. It is also important to note that the views expressed in this
document and in the survey are confined only to economic issues and do not
deal with any issues which may or may not arise in other areas such as
security, defence, human rights or other issues.

http://www.indecon.ie/download/pdf/lisbon.pdf

 

[broken arm]

so Ganley is back.

the lizard king of the NO campaign.

 

[Milker]

so Ganley is back.

the lizard king of the NO campaign.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203440104574404643114251588.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

all lies, of course

 

[pete]

The deceivers and manipulators are out again. ‘Ireland Needs Europe,’ a Fianna Fail poster proclaims. ‘Yes to Jobs, Yes to Europe,’ a Fine Gael one declares. ‘It’s simple, I want a strong voice in Europe,’ another poster proclaims.

Taoiseach Brian Cowen was on radio last Wednesday talking about the other EU member states going ahead without us by inaugurating a ‘‘two-speed Europe’’ if we voted No again. ‘‘It’s in Ireland’s interests to be at the core of Europe," he said.

They rage about the disinformation on the No side, the posters from the last time about conscription, abortion and corporation tax. Those messages may have been bogus, but so are the messages this time from the Yes side.

http://www.thepost.ie/commentandanalysis/three-good-reasons-to-spurn-lisbon-once-again-44120.html

 

[broken arm]

thefre is a big fifference between vague and meaningless and factually incorrect.

all the bull about abortion and minimum wage are atcual lies where "we need europe" is vacuous.

 

[thisgreg]

Well I'm totally undecided on this....

First time around i read the material, i think there was a summary of the treaty and a guide that you could download.

I thought that last time the government really messed up and didn't explain it at all which was really annoying... Yes if you were arsed, literate and had an okay degree of education you could access the information. If not... well you either don't vote or get swayed.

I literally didn't know which way i was going to vote walking into the polling station last time.

I'm not happy at having to vote again, as with Niece, a part from the question of whether it is democratic or not, it's an indication that the government messed up and i don't think they've learned from it. As i mentioned above you kind of have to go out of your way to find answers and just the facts with out a political slant.

Still don't know what way i'll go this time, went no last time, but i heard declan ganley and some other no campaigner on Marian Finnucan yesterday morning and there level of ignorance made me want to vote Yes this time.

I have not an ounce of love for this government, neither in the good time or the bad, but this (i think) is bigger than them, hopefully soon they'll be gone and we shouldn't let our anger at them decide our future.

 

[Froog]

thefre is a big fifference between vague and meaningless and factually incorrect.

all the bull about abortion and minimum wage are atcual lies where "we need europe" is vacuous.

i agree, can't see anyone being offended/misled by messages of "we're better off in europe". what else can the yes side say about it? "vote yes, or not whatever, it won't make any difference". trying to equate that with the NO campaign scaremongering lies is ridiculous.

 

[coast to coast]

I voted Yes last time. The more and more I think about it, I'm probably going to vote no this time.

That said, given the need to reinforce popular participation in the democratic processes, the campaigns run by both the yes and no campaigns in both referenda have been a fucking disgrace. Fearmongering shite that has avoided anything but a shallow surface look at the issues.

 

[broken arm]

thefre is a big fifference between vague and meaningless and factually incorrect.

all the bull about abortion and minimum wage are atcual lies where "we need europe" is vacuous.

fifference??

 

[broken arm]

oh and Ganley is back to act as a classic diversion - he said he wouldn't get involved but the NO campaign was in a heap. The wackos were taking over.

Coir's lies were being pointed out. As much as it pains me, Joe Higgins was found out to be miquoting the treaty text to alter its position.

 

[aoboa]

Okay - I've read up on this now - again actually cos I read up on it last time.

Can someone correct me if I'm wrong:
Both the YES and NO campaigns are scaremongering.
There is nothing in here that will save jobs, be good for Ireland, help bail us out etc..
Same applies to all the NO campaign stuff.

On the face of it there's nothing really to be worried about - loads of oblique stuff about how the EU works. No real good reason to vote YES and no real good reason to vote NO.

 

[broken arm]

Okay - I've read up on this now - again actually cos I read up on it last time.

Can someone correct me if I'm wrong:
Both the YES and NO campaigns are scaremongering.
There is nothing in here that will save jobs, be good for Ireland, help bail us out etc..
Same applies to all the NO campaign stuff.

On the face of it there's nothing really to be worried about - loads of oblique stuff about how the EU works. No real good reason to vote YES and no real good reason to vote NO.

you're right. it is a headwreck. could you describe what a good reason to vote (yes or no) would be?

 

[aoboa]

Dunno - it's all so vague. I'm actually more annoyed at the yes campaign this time around. 'Vote YES for jobs' is an outright lie.
Vote YES so that we don't get sidelined 10 years down the line would be more honest.

The issue of sovereignty seems the most contentious but at this moment in time I wouldn't mind a few years of being governed by the French or Germans