Official Thumped position on Lisbon (1 Viewer)

[Cormcolash]

I've gotten to the stage where I just don't care whether it gets passed or not. Either way it doesn't give back any powers to the people and the same guys will be in charge at the top. It has a few good points and it has a few bad points, I don't agree with the For side and I don't agree with the Against side, I would be for a unified borderless Europe just not under the control of an only semi-elected and totally unaccountable group of politicians (when was the last time you heard of an Irish MEP resigning or being recalled?). Ugh.

Exactly. I just prefer to talk about monkeys.

 

[platters]

Genuine Question I need answering before I swing onto the Yes side;

Is it fair to say that this treaty has been drafted in accordance with the wishes of ordinary EU citizens?

 

[Froog]

from the coir website:

People you’ve never voted for are interfering in your life:
• threatening carbon taxes
• banning patio heaters
• recording your e-mails and internet visits

EU - STAY THE FUCK AWAY FROM MY PATIO HEATERS!!!!!!

 

[Space]

Fuck you and your patio heater. I'm definitely voting yes now.

 

[broken arm]

Genuine Question I need answering before I swing onto the Yes side;

Is it fair to say that this treaty has been drafted in accordance with the wishes of ordinary EU citizens?

good question. I'm not being funny but who are the ordinary citizens and where is their list of wishes?

 

[Moods For Mallards]

I had a Polish taxi driver last night who was very patronising. When I said I didn't really think this was big step to a USE, he said "oh, I'm glad to hear that, I really am. I think maybe you should learn about history".
And similar tone to that for the whole drive. Said he came from a place where they had a big confederation ruling over them.
I think he was referring to the Roman Empire or something.

 

[platters]

good question. I'm not being funny but who are the ordinary citizens and where is their list of wishes?

For arguments sake lets say

All EU citizens who were eligible to vote for MEPs

and

The pre-election mandates of those MEPs that won their seats in the 2004 elections

I need to do some digging for some 2004 lit of those that won seats…

 

[ratmonkey]

I had a Polish taxi driver last night who was very patronising. When I said I didn't really think this was big step to a USE, he said "oh, I'm glad to hear that, I really am. I think maybe you should learn about history".
And similar tone to that for the whole drive. Said he came from a place where they had a big confederation ruling over them.
I think he was referring to the Roman Empire or something.

You're thinking of the Holy Roman Empire, the actual Roman Empire per se never made it that far.

 

[broken arm]

For arguments sake lets say

All EU citizens who were eligible to vote for MEPs

and

The pre-election mandates of those MEPs that won their seats in the 2004 elections

I need to do some digging for some 2004 lit of those that won seats…

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/membe...C313AAF0E48917C8A24E7DFCF9A.node1?language=en

 

[broken arm]

just had a sconce at De Rossa's blog as the first link from the Parliament site below.

he has an interesting list

• Security for Ireland’s future and economic wellbeing.1

• Irish tax rates continue to be set in Ireland.2

• Ireland will have the same representation in the Commission as Germany.3

• Ireland will have equality in EU decisions, with no loss of power.4

• Effective action on climate change and its security risks.5

• Ireland’s military neutrality, as well as Malta, Austria, Cyprus, Finland and Sweden, remains unchanged.6

• Foreign investment into Ireland will continue to be secure.7

• New commitment to full employment, social market economy, fair trade, humanitarian aid, solidarity with developing countries, and eradication of poverty, social exclusion and discrimination.8

• Member States and MEPs make EU laws – not the Commission.9

• Greater role for TDs and MEPs in making and monitoring of EU decisions.10

• Ireland is free to choose its own energy sources.11

• Priority for energy security, renewables, sustainable development.12

• The Charter of Fundamental Rights becomes binding and includes the right to equal treatment in the workplace.13

• New right to personal data protection.14

• Ban on sexual exploitation of women and children.15

• Effective action on international crime, drugs and trafficking of women and children.16

• The creation of a new Volunteer Humanitarian Aid Corps, open to young Europeans.17

• Discrimination on grounds of disability prohibited.18

• European wide ban on the death penalty and torture.19

• Cloning of human beings banned throughout Europe.20

• Promotion of healthy and safe Irish working conditions.21

• Respect for Irish cultural, religious and linguistic diversity.22

• Freedom of thought, conscience and religion, underpinned.23

• Automatic help for Irish holiday makers abroad (where there is no Irish Embassy).24

• Faster funding and response for humanitarian disasters.25

• New incentives for education, culture, sport, tourism and public health.26

• New aim to combat all kinds of domestic violence.27

• Guaranteed assistance in case of humanitarian crisis or terrorist attack.28

• Europe continues to be neutral on public versus private ownership.29

• New safeguards provided for Member State public services.30

Page numbers refer to the Lisbon Treaty official consolidated text reference C115;
RC refers to the EU Rights Charter.

1 p148,17.

2 p95.

3 p155.

4 p18, 51.

5 p132.

6 p38.

7 p139-141, 144-147.

8 p17.

9 p173.

10 p24, 203, 204.

11 p135.

12 p134.

13 p19.

14 RC p.19.

15 RC p19.

16 p73-78.

17 p143.

18 p56; RC p19.

19 RC p19.

20 RC p19.

21 p114; RC p19.

22 Preamble p15 and 17, 121-122, 344.

23 RC p19.

24 p139.

25 p143.

26 p120-123.

27 p345.

28 p148.

29 p194.

30 p54, 308.

 

[platters]

Sorry if I'm slow on the uptake with this, but where does it mention Lisbon? Can you give me a link to check out later plz?

I've just realised that I was living in the UK during the 2004 elections, hence I didn't pick up on this at the time.

 

[broken arm]

i haven't checked through the whole list mind you.

"Yes to Lisbon gets you.."
http://www.derossa.com/showPage.php?ID=2419&PHPSESSID=240012a93da8301bc9c3e5ee0c9b52d9

 

[platters]

Ah, so those points are from DeRossa's 2009 mandate.

Just had a quick gander at all 2004 press releases, no mention of a treaty being drafted, or a constitution or whatever they were calling it at the time.

Under a 2004 press release titled "The European elections - what values for Dublin?" you would expect him to mention drafting the treaty, no?

Instead he gives us;

"The forthcoming election will be fundamentally an election about values - the narrow, greedy, divisive values of the current FF/PD's Government or Labour's values of equality, social justice, solidarity and tolerance, values that we believe are shared by hundreds of thousands of people all across Ireland"

This reinforces my point which is that MEPs are always voted in on mandates which contain local and current issues. Personally I have never seen anything saying that they were drafting this treaty or that there was presently a document being written that concerned people in the long term.

Which leads to my original question: Do people actually want this treaty, or is it a case of our EU leaders working away drafting this thing with no real impetus from your average EU citizen?

 

[broken arm]

Which leads to my original question: Do people actually want this treaty, or is it a case of our EU leaders working away drafting this thing with no real impetus from your average EU citizen?

i see where you're coming from with this now.

Have you tried asking any of the sitting MEPs? I'd suggest ringing instead of email.

 

[Milker]

just had a sconce at De Rossa's blog as the first link from the Parliament site below.

he has an interesting list

a lot of important eggs in one basket if you ask me and i wonder why..all the listed points are detailed in the treaty are they? not extrapolations like the €1.84 min wage..thats not in the treaty but you could argue that the berth given to big biz like, for example, around workers rights(importing contract workers) could(could) result in a €1.84 min wage...and human clones

i don't recall all these benefits being listed for lisbon 1...seems you could argue that the effort involved in writing 'yes' makes you fitter than writing 'no'..i mean whats in the treaty that tells us why its needed??

if you vote yes you are declaring you trust the motives of minds that saw fit to redesign and repackage the rejected eu-constitution because citizens (hard-working/worried/thoughtful/hopeful) didn't trust it...omg...am i ganley?...i'm going to bed

 

[Anarcho Munk]

Does anyone know where I could get a copy of the consolidated treaty?
I wouldn't mind having a go at it, if only for a chin scratch.

 

[GO]

Does anyone know where I could get a copy of the consolidated treaty?
I wouldn't mind having a go at it, if only for a chin scratch.

A real Anarcho Munk would pretends he cant read.
And then sing a shit song outta tune and throw shite at himself.

 

[Anarcho Munk]

A real Anarcho Munk would pretends he cant read.
And then sing a shit song outta tune and throw shite at himself.

I left that task to GG Allin dudebro, and look where he ended up.!ninjaaaa

 

[Anarcho Munk]

This sums everything up...perfectly.

 

[broken arm]

I've decided that over the next few weeks I am going to try and change my view on Lisbon.

i'm going to ignore COIR, UKIP, SF, SP, the ghost of Libertas but I want facts and policy.