Lisbon Treaty (4 Viewers)

[Froog]

 

[Mormon Nailer]

yea, the energetic and hopeful eastern european youth should be grateful to work in our shitty newsagents, to serve our racist taxi drivers greasy breakfast rolls, take abuse from customers and earn relatively fuck all to do so.

is this a joke?

I don't think so. They weren't kidnapped and brought here on slave ships, they come because there is more oppertunity here than at home, same reason as we all fucked off to the UK or US not long ago.

 

[nofunchee]

It's all economics - there always going to be a selfish motive somewehere.

it's all mainstream economics though isn't it? i don't know a whole lot about economics but isn't there very few alternatives thought in western schools?

 

[nofunchee]

same reason as we all fucked off to the UK or US not long ago.

the brits?

 

[Mormon Nailer]

it's all mainstream economics though isn't it? i don't know a whole lot about economics but isn't there very few alternatives thought in western schools?

Economics baffles me - completely, so I can't help. I do know one thing though an economy run by arachno syndicatilists sounds like purgatory to me

 

[broken arm]

I don't think so. They weren't kidnapped and brought here on slave ships, they come because there is more oppertunity here than at home, same reason as we all fucked off to the UK or US not long ago.

ok but i don't agree.

 

[Mormon Nailer]

ok but i don't agree.

About which bit?

 

[Froog]

I do know one thing though an economy run by arachno syndicatilists sounds like purgatory to me

it's hell alright.

 

[Mormon Nailer]

The one thing I agree with (regardless of the implication that our new Polish serfs prostrate themselves in gratitue before us) is the idea that the EU is fundamentally about free movement of people and it was wrong to subvert that in the case of the ascession countries.

 

[CitySickness]

 

[Mormon Nailer]

it's hell alright.

I think by now everyone realises I can't spell.

 

[nofunchee]

Economics baffles me - completely, so I can't help. I do know one thing though an economy run by arachno syndicatilists sounds like purgatory to me

nah, i wasn't talking about anarchist economics. i read an interesting book by peadar kirby a while back called 'poverty amid plenty'. it's from 1997 so it's not mad up to date or anything but there was a chapter explaining global economics and dominant economic ideologies in social and political context, and in chronological order through history. it kind of gave me an idea of how pervasive certain ideologies were and how alternatives were suppressed.

when i think about how much economic ideology impacts on everything and how important it is i think about how mad it is that no alternatives seem to be taught to students. maybe i'm wrong about that. i just hate the idea of a load of milton friedman clones running about having opinions on social policy issues.

the most scary thing for me about mainstream economic ideology is that it's surrounded by the conception that the market is a force of nature. i mean, what the fuck is that all about?

 

[broken arm]

About which bit?

i think we're getting confused here. I disagree with the article and how the article may appear acceptable to irish people because we are talking about immigrants. I also disagree with the tone of "well, they must be coming here because they are poor and anything we provide must be better than that".

this is probably way off the point and is considering the UK but I had a very interesting lecture from Charles Leadbeater recently on immigration and innovation - http://www.nesta.org.uk/assets/Uploads/pdf/Provocation/differencedividendprovocationNESTA.pdf

 

[maims bond]

when i think about how much economic ideology impacts on everything and how important it is i think about how mad it is that no alternatives seem to be taught to students. maybe i'm wrong about that. i just hate the idea of a load of milton friedman clones running about having opinions on social policy issues.

the most scary thing for me about mainstream economic ideology is that it's surrounded by the conception that the market is a force of nature. i mean, what the fuck is that all about?

I studied economics during a social science degree. The economists would touch on things like the 'Command Economy' and subsequently deride it as communist utopian nonsense. They would only teach us straight-forward free market economics, or the odd bit of Keynesianism thrown in for good measure. There was no serious discussion of alternatives. In fairness though, the command economy employed in the USSR was a fuckin disaster.

 

[Mormon Nailer]

i think we're getting confused here. I disagree with the article and how the article may appear acceptable to irish people because we are talking about immigrants. I also disagree with the tone of "well, they must be coming here because they are poor and anything we provide must be better than that".

this is probably way off the point and is considering the UK but I had a very interesting lecture from Charles Leadbeater recently on immigration and innovation - http://www.nesta.org.uk/assets/Uploads/pdf/Provocation/differencedividendprovocationNESTA.pdf

I'd say you'd have a point if they were being exploited in the way for example Mexican emmigrants are in the US, but they get the same protections as our own workers. And they are not just lumped into service industires - quite a few of the admin people where I work are from accession countries.

 

[nofunchee]

In fairness though, the command economy employed in the USSR was a fuckin disaster.

yeah, totally. there's too much "well communism didn't work now did it?" responses from people when you criticise free market economics though. as if the choice is capitalism or communism, a or b. cold war's over man!

 

[Mormon Nailer]

I studied economics during a social science degree. The economists would touch on things like the 'Command Economy' and subsequently deride it as communist utopian nonsense. They would only teach us straight-forward free market economics, or the odd bit of Keynesianism thrown in for good measure. There was no serious discussion of alternatives. In fairness though, the command economy employed in the USSR was a fuckin disaster.

Shouldn't there be more distinction between how you choose to organise you society and the ideas behind how an ecomomy functions. This continual belleding of economic ides into social science kind of disturbs me.

You end up with absurd things like the idea of the Free Market becoming an artice of faith, like it is in the US, and there is no social ill that can'e eliminated if we just whup a little free market on it.

 

[CitySickness]

yeah, totally. there's too much "well communism didn't work now did it?" responses from people when you criticise free market economics though. as if the choice is capitalism or communism, a or b. cold war's over man!

Yeah, I find this baffling too. As if there's no possibility of a mixed economy.

 

[classic seanc]

I did Economic History for LC, and did (well, showed up for) 4 years of Economics lectures in college.
I believe all the economic theories were on the Ec.His syllabus, but the exam is such that you don’t need to study any of that, it’s more a subject you do because it’s easy to get a good LC result in it, you only need to know about a fifth of the syllabus.

In college, nothing other than standard free market economics appeared.

I feel short changed about that really. I’ve been accused of being a communist after many drunken rants, yet I don’t even know what that is exactly, or where to start learning about communism, or any other economic theory.

 

[broken arm]

Shouldn't there be more distinction between how you choose to organise you society and the ideas behind how an ecomomy functions. This continual belleding of economic ides into social science kind of disturbs me

but there is strong mixtures of ideology, paradigms etc in all of this.

for example - that last exchange between us two showed different paradigms affecting perceptions of the same economic/social issue - I see poverty/exploitation as relative to context whereas you see it as absolute and comparative. i.e. they are worse of in mexico so it is not an issue here.

does this sound patronising?