Lisbon Treaty (1 Viewer)

[broken arm]

but it would be re-running on the basis that the concerns raised the first time round will be addressed.

 

[Goff]

Anyway, being in the EU is handy if we completely bankrupt ourselves. I'd rather have the EU bail us out rather than the IMF.

After the third Mission Impossible movie, I don't blame you.

And you make some valid points. Especially with regards Foreign investment. We gave away our rights years ago for R&D and it rightly screwed us over.

In the 80's, when they had a divorce referendum, there was some clause that said they couldn't have another one for a long period (I think it was ten years). Same with abortion. But strangely, for any Euro one of late, it's whenever they Government decide. "You'll vote till you give us the answer we want to hear," type of thing.

I'll still be voting no. For the same reasons as before. And because I don't like things rammed down my throat. It's either a democracy or it's not.

We were applauded across Europe by Jean Publique et al. We'll be a laughing stock (again) if we change our minds.

Then again, we are a nation of gobshites who deserve all the misery we bring upon ourselves.

 

[broken arm]

And you make some valid points. Especially with regards Foreign investment. We gave away our rights years ago for R&D and it rightly screwed us over.

what do you mean we gave away our rights for R&D?

I'll still be voting no. For the same reasons as before. And because I don't like things rammed down my throat. It's either a democracy or it's not.

So do you want to leave Europe? The only way you can get that is by voting Yes so the mechanisms can be put in place.


I would like for people to explain exactly what they mean by democracy, in practice because there seems to be massive contradictions in peoples view of democracy, national identity and how this relates to supranational entities such as the EU.

 

[Goff]

Democracy is majority rule, as far as I'm concerned. Like a referendum.

The EEC was grand. Europa ain't. They're trying to become a superstate. Which is something I'm not a big fan of. Let's call it Grossdeutschland, for want of a better name. It all wnet pear-shaped when the idea of Intervention came into play. Moutains made from Butter!

On the other point: We were being touted as world leader's in the computer science field, way back when. But in actual fact, we were just doing some great work, which made some companies an awful lot of money, but didn't retain any of it as the rights for said work were owned and controlled by those companies. Non-Oirish companies. But, feck it; they were paying for the research, so it was theirs in the first place. Only, in a lot of cases, these days, it's not. Colleges are almost completely controlled in what they can and can't research these days by the lure of corporate sponsorship. But, that's another matter.

Europe? We don't have to sign up to a Lisbon treaty in order to get out of it. We can just leave.

 

[Wobbler]

So, are people in general against Lisbon because they're against Europe?

 

[HMD]

you gonna change your vote? just curious

No

 

[hugh]

Colleges are almost completely controlled in what they can and can't research these days by the lure of corporate sponsorship.

Not at all. The vast bulk of research funding in the Universities (in the sciences anyway) now comes through Science Foundation Ireland which is a government agency. In spite of all sorts of efforts there hasn't been a whole lot of success in funding research through corporate sponsorship. Failure of Media Lab Europe would be a case in point .... so it doesn't really have that much influence on what people do or don't research at all. Consequently you are far more likely to find people complaining that that industry and corporations have too little influence rather than too much. Anyway, this is way off topic ....

 

[broken arm]

Democracy is majority rule, as far as I'm concerned. Like a referendum.

I understand that people want every member state to have a referendum but then I would like to see a workable plan on how this should happen. Also, by suggesting that Ireland are speaking on behalf of the majority of Europeans by stalling the process isn't democracy under the definition presented.

D Colleges are almost completely controlled in what they can and can't research these days by the lure of corporate sponsorship. But, that's another matter.

Ok - this hasn't got anything to do with the EU and I just misunderstood your point.

I understand the problems of purely private investement in research and innovation but I also understand the cost implications for national governments. How would you propose to fund the research required to move Ireland towards an innovative economy without EU or private money?

Europe? We don't have to sign up to a Lisbon treaty in order to get out of it. We can just leave.

This isn't true and Lisbon proposes a mechanism by which member states can leave.

 

[broken arm]

on withdrawing from the EU..

Withdrawal from the Union: the Treaty of Lisbon explicitly recognises for the first time the possibility for a Member State to withdraw from the Union.

http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/glance/index_en.htm

At present, there are no specific arrangements for withdrawing from membership of the EU. The Treaty of Lisbon provides a process for withdrawal. No member state has withdrawn from the EU to date. Greenland (which is part of Denmark) did withdraw – a special treaty was agreed to allow this

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/c...bon-treaty/joining-or-withdrawing-from-the-eu

 

[Cormcolash]

but it would be re-running on the basis that the concerns raised the first time round will be addressed.

So in that case, call it a different name. If a different treaty is being presented, then it's not the Lisbon treaty anymore. If it's not different enough to rename, then it's the same stuff over again, which was already voted on.

The issue here is a fairly common one in politics right now, which is politicians explicitly going against the rules that they themselves helped put in place. Total abuse of power.

 

[broken arm]

So in that case, call it a different name. If a different treaty is being presented, then it's not the Lisbon treaty anymore. If it's not different enough to rename, then it's the same stuff over again, which was already voted on.

The issue here is a fairly common one in politics right now, which is politicians explicitly going against the rules that they themselves helped put in place. Total abuse of power.

we can choose to ignore the facts till the cows come home but the reality is that a treaty it's not a law that can be followed letter by letter. there has to be agreements on interpretations.

the same way that a european directive isn't a statutory instrument and a a national constitution isn't a piece of legislation.

etc etc.

who gives a fuck anyway eh?

we're going out to have a pint in the sun and plan our holiday to Turkey - I may contemplate on how the Lisbon Treaty accomodates new entrants to the EU and how good it is for them (if they want it)..... or not...