Lisbon Treaty (1 Viewer)

[cozy]

Dunno if anything has been posted about this. Ireland is the only country in Europe to have a referendum on this. I know little to nothing realistically about this but there's some fairly scary stuff going on
Gay mitchel is a tool

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[broken arm]

i can't listen to these in work.

what is the general gist of the videos?

 

[Shorty]

Hey, I know you can't vote in the general election if you're out of the country, but what's the story when it comes to referenda as I don't think I'll be in Ireland on June 12th?

 

[magicbastarder]

anyone seen the 'people died for your rights - don't throw them away' posters.

someone has yet to explain to me why taking power away from fianna fail would be a bad thing.

 

[plug]

I hear you. I know basically nothing about the lisbon treaty but I'm assuming that if fianna faíl wants us to vote yes then we should all probably vote no...

 

[Unicron]

Is it really neccescery for FF and FG to poster the same lamppost with YES posters? Could they not have come to some agreement about just letting those party neutral yellow ones go up? Or just come to realise that they don't need to poster and intenively as they did for the general election?

 

[cozy]

I just think its remarkable that Brian Cowens first words as taoiseach is talk of the importance of a yes vote in the lisbon treaty, fully aware that the public doesnt have a clue whats going on. Bertie said we'd be insane not to vote yes...fuckwit

 

[ernesto]

when is the referendum & how can one vote if out of the country?

 

[simp]

The Info site is here:-
http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/
Overview here:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6901353.stm
Crazies here:-
http://eiregobrach.ie/

The Lisbon treaty is basically about making the newly enlarged EU workable. This means removing some powers from individual states (for example, changing voting and representation arrangements), but also copperfastening other collective rights (such as making the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights legally binding). We still retain a veto on taxation, defense and foreign policy. So it's swings and roundabouts, but not earth-shattering stuff.

It's a hard sell because it's a huge bureaucratic document - even Cowen admits he hasn't read it. Many legal experts question whether a referendum was needed at all, from a constitutional point of view, since sovereignty is not at stake - and the consensus is that it's a FF pass-the-buck stunt. It is shocking that FF, when debating the issues with the likes of Libertas, don't even acknowledge their points, and it damages the whole process (and makes people even more cynical about politics, if possible).

Of course we can vote No - but it will just stall the EU project for a time, while they figure out a new direction - and it will piss off Brussles no end, but it won't be a catastrophe. Nor will it be taken, I think, as Ireland being anti-EU - lots of anti-Lisbon people around Europe would love to have their say. But before voting, it's important that people be informed (as emphasised in the clips above), and make a decision based on the merits of the treaty, and not on how much they dislike FF/PD/FG/etc.

It is good, though, that there be a debate about the role of the EU in Ireland. There are a few contrasting views here:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7378421.stm

Finally, I attach the Green Party's Lisbon Treay Handbook, which is well worth a look at, containing 25 objections to the Treaty, with detailed rebuttals.

 

[simp]

when is the referendum & how can one vote if out of the country?

The Treaty is June 12th, and postal voting information is here:-
http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/lisbon_treaty_check_the_register.html

 

[ratmonkey]

I hear you. I know basically nothing about the lisbon treaty but I'm assuming that if fianna faíl wants us to vote yes then we should all probably vote no...

If we all vote no it'll probably scupper the Bert's chances of getting the EU presidency. They'll ask again anyway, get the yes, but no President Bertie.

 

[hugh]

Finally, I attach the Green Party's Lisbon Treay Handbook, which is well worth a look at, containing 25 objections to the Treaty, with detailed rebuttals.

Think you forgot the link for this ...

Funny .. when you Google it, your post referring to it comes up tops. Probably says something about how bad the GP's website is in terms of search engine optimisation ....

 

[pete]

anyone seen the 'people died for your rights - don't throw them away' posters.

they're apparently from some organisation that shares a postal address with youth defence and some other crackpots.

 

[pete]

The European Defence Agency, the function of which is to expand and improve EU military expenditure, is part of the treaty. In December 2007, the European Commission made it clear that the emerging European Defence Agency will mean even more arms exports and a boost to the global arms trade. If you want to support the arms trade, make sure you vote Yes.

Up to now the concept of the EU as a partnership of independent states was expressed by the fact that the position of EU president was rotated between all the states. That now ends with the appointment of an EU president and minister for foreign affairs with an EU diplomatic service, for a de facto five-year period.

We would have to "support the Union's external and security policy actively and unreservedly in a spirit of loyalty and mutual solidarity". When president José Manuel Barroso said the EU had the "dimensions of empire", he was not joking.

The mutual defence and solidarity clauses, the military structured co-operation clauses that allow a group of states within the EU to create their own armed force to take part in more "demanding" military expeditions, and the EU battlegroups leave no room for doubt about the militarisation of the EU.

The French have already called for the six largest EU states to establish a 60,000-strong expeditionary army.

No wonder the leaked memo said the referendum should not be held later this year, because "the risk of unhelpful developments during the French presidency - particularly relating to EU defence - were just too great".

When people vote, the key question is: what kind of Europe do they want? If they want a centralised, militarised, neo-liberal superstate allied to the US, engaged in wars all over the world, then they should vote Yes.

If they want a partnership Europe - a partnership of independent, democratic states, legal equals, without a military dimension - then they should vote No.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0517/1210968361355.html

 

[IFF]

they're apparently from some organisation that shares a postal address with youth defence and some other crackpots.

According to that group, cóir. the eu treaty will force us to (their website is http://www.lisbonvote.com/ but i can't link to a particular part f it due to the way they set up the site) :

That’s because under the Lisbon Treaty we’ll be made subject to the EU Court of Justice and the EU’s Charter of Fundamental Rights. The Charter will be legally binding on Ireland and can force us to change our laws on issues as important as:
- how we raise and educate our children

- legalization of prostitution and drugs
- abortion and euthanasia

sounds good to me. think of the benefits. you could get a prostitute pregnant and not be stuck with a kid you have to raise with a prostitute.

they make a valid point for a yes vote

 

[oh shit]

it's a bad idea, vote no

 

[Mormon Nailer]

Tony Benn is due on Pat Kenny in 10 to discuss this. He's suggesting we vote no.

 

[oh shit]

i don't mean to sound like a complete tory

but setting up a supra-national body of bureaucrats with no clear lines of democratic accountability will only increase levels of biopolitical governance at the expense of anything like proper representation - which is all but a fiction anyway in the contemporary "state of exception"

europe could work, but please, not like this

 

[simp]

Think you forgot the link for this ...

Funny .. when you Google it, your post referring to it comes up tops. Probably says something about how bad the GP's website is in terms of search engine optimisation ....

The file was too big - so now I have put it here...
http://www.gigasize.com/get.php?d=wqkrj6gpgxb

 

[pete]

Tony Benn is due on Pat Kenny in 10 to discuss this. He's suggesting we vote no.

so what did he say?