Is the Irish Music Industry unethical/immoral to independent artists? (4 Viewers)

[MilanPan!c]

It could be. There's a hint of progress about it, worth trying it, it worked elsewhere.

You're kind of proving my point here in that you're making assumptions in shit would be done without considering possible alternative ways of doing it

I'm not proving your point. Lol.

 

[ann post]

It's a small ask.

Its an even smaller ask to not type everything twice and for you to read the posts you are responding to.

 

[MilanPan!c]

Its an even smaller ask to not type everything twice and for you to read the posts you are responding to.

Well. We can agree to disagree. If you're desperate to get answers off me, ask again. Otherwise we'll just drop it. At least I will.

 

[ernesto]

Its an even smaller ask to not type everything twice and for you to read the posts you are responding to.

Ha! Was just about post that it would in fact be the smaller ask to just scroll click and read as opposed to using the wretched keyboard to c+v

 

[ann post]

Well. We can agree to disagree. If you're desperate to get answers off me, ask again. Otherwise we'll just drop it. At least I will.

Can you type that again? I don't feel like reading this one.

 

[ernesto]

I'm not proving your point. Lol.

No, you are. Shooting ideas down without even considering the potential for some, any improvement on the current failed system of complete bullshit

 

[shower another shower]

this thread has gone to shit.

 

[MilanPan!c]

Ha! Was just about post that it would in fact be the smaller ask to just scroll click and read as opposed to using the wretched keyboard to c+v

Ha! Was just about post that it would in fact be the smaller ask to just scroll click and read as opposed to using the wretched keyboard to c+v

I have no idea what post of his in this thread he was referring to, and if I've in fact already answered his questions in another post. I've certainly answered the same question from different people more than once already. It's a big issue, copy and paste them and I'll answer them. Otherwise it's just showboating; I've had no issue answering anything anyone has asked previously and pretending I'm acting suspicious because I missed some question he asked is childish.

 

[MilanPan!c]

No, you are. Shooting ideas down without even considering the potential for some, any improvement on the current failed system of complete bullshit

Shooting down stupid ideas because they are stupid isn't bullshit.

Forcing the entire island to pay taxes so certain bands some government employee deemed valuable, can earn a pittance is stupid idea. It's not a step in the right direction, it's just a random action to appease a minority of musicians who want some arbritrary government subsidy.

 

[nooleen]

I know you didn't say it, in the same way I never said that the arts council should be shut down. It's helpful if you read posts instead of putting words in my mouth. It sucks when people do that huh?

lol

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[ernesto]

Shooting down stupid ideas because they are stupid isn't bullshit.

Forcing the entire island to pay taxes so certain bands some government employee deemed valuable, can earn a pittance is stupid idea. It's not a step in the right direction, it's just a random action to appease a minority of musicians who want some arbritrary government subsidy.

There you go again,

You've assumed a government employee would be responsible.

And what would make it a random action?
I imagine there could be combined ways of doing it, continually. That's not random.

Why is it a minority of musicians?
From my perspective it's actually a majority thAt are being shafted.

So yes, assuming the worst possible outcome.
it just seems to me that you've taken a very conservative stance by just shunning all logic or suggestion of it. Because 'it's stupid'.

Heavens forbid a system could provide a platform enabling musicians to be more successful abroad and potentially bring back Money to spend in this country. This allowing the process to eventually contribute towards itself. Or you know, ANYTHING better

 

[Cormcolash]

Shooting down stupid ideas because they are stupid isn't bullshit.

Forcing the entire island to pay taxes so certain bands some government employee deemed valuable, can earn a pittance is stupid idea. It's not a step in the right direction, it's just a random action to appease a minority of musicians who want some arbritrary government subsidy.

What about, charging 10% extra on sales of music - CD, Vinyl, fucking Spotify, whatever - and taking that money and redistributing it to musicians?

 

[JohnnyRaz]

having mulled over this somewhat my take would be:

- If government money is put ito supporting performers it should be at the level of providing non-profit spaces to run gigs (and indeed other local cultural activities). These exist to some extent in some places as council art centres etc - but a more basic version (similar to the likes of the independent spaces that have popped up round dublin in the past 5 years). There 2/3 core funded staff and takings on the door are split 50/50 or 60/40 between organisers and venue, the venues share going back to upkeep of centre. Of course in this country Denis O Brien would probably get the contract to set these up... But all joking aside the idea that the government should directly subsidise every band in the country is nuts.
- Venue should split bar takings with bands. No pay to play. If you dont bring a crowd or are shit you dont get a second chance. Simple as. Forces bar to be pro-active about what's booked, as oposed to viewing 'venue' part of thier operation as something thats simply a cash cow.
- Commercial Festivals should at bare minimum cover bands expenses.
- DIY DIY DIY
-pete brady

 

[MilanPan!c]

What about, charging 10% extra on sales of music - CD, Vinyl, fucking Spotify, whatever - and taking that money and redistributing it to musicians?

So the diminishing money artists make off records sales will be diminished even more so that government approved bands can make a few euro a week?

 

[MilanPan!c]

Here's a suggestion:

Musicians band together and make a venue that will be rentable, at cost, to musicians. That venue will then give all profits made on a specific night to the bands.

That's a much easier and fairer solution than taxing the populace, or other musicians, to pay government sanctioned bands.

 

[washingcattle]

No one is gonna see their taxes raised so that some punk band on a Tuesday in the Pint get paid. It's not gonna happen.

Your talking thousands and thousands of hours a year that would need to be paid and many if not the majority of those performances are empty or half-empty rooms.

I personally don't think it's moral to force people to pay taxes for that.

How many government employees should we hire to police this system where bands are deemed good enough to be paid?

If a band does one cover does it deserve payment?

What about bands playing a GBV tribute night? Are they now worthless, even though they're all original bands?

And sure, you can have €20 a year from me, but how much money do you think that would possibly mean to the average musician?

€100 a year?

A €10 a month?

And that tenner a month is worth how many new laws, government employees, taxes and whatnot?

That's the big leap forward?

I still don't know why you are banging on about a how a scheme to create funding for music in ireland would cost the tax payer more money when in reality we already have such a fund and unfortunately it fails to provide for musicians. Like I said earlier and you completely ignored, your taxes fund the arts council of Ireland and the arts council of ireland still turn a completely blind eye to the existence of the irish independent music. The way the arts council funds project should be restructured (and I mean that in terms of all young artists not just musicians, the arts council has made some huge mistakes over the years and needs to be overhauled). Music in Ireland makes money for everyone except the musicians, that's the bottom line. More money than any other art in fact and the fact that it has been overlooked is a huge mistake. The UK arts council is already ahead of the game and regularly gives grants of up to £15,000 to bands.

The fact is that one saturday night at Whelan's puts more money back into the exchequer through sales of alcohol than any art gallery can in a month. It generates more revenue for the companies who provide the alcohol than any cinema can and yet when it comes down to the crunch the arts council are more ready to pump money into vanity projects than into grassroots music and the drinks companies are more willing to sponsor the Dublin Film festival than put any money in the pockets of what is basically their front line marketing. And like it or not that is how you are treated at the moment. Bands draw a crowd and sell booze. No venue gives a fuck about you beyond that and that has to change.

Further more lets use the example of IMRO I've played for years and never seen a cent from them I don't know anyone who has. Venues pay a license fee to IMRO in order to play music inside their venue. Let's say that as a working venue your license fee was waved if you were to pay money directly to bands who play in that venue. That's just one example of reallocating finances to the people who actually need it.

I'm fucking sick of you rubbing your fingers together like Seymour Skinner going "oh what about the taxes?" You're fucking wrong if you thought about it for five fucking seconds you'd realise your fucking wrong and yet still you persist. As for how many people would have to be hired to police any strategy ? I'd imagine creating what ? 3 jobs within in the arts would be something most people would be more than happy to see €0.03 per year to. And oh yes jobs put money back into the exchequer too. Just in case you hadn't noticed.

I got as far as this

"There are very few other careers where it is completely acceptable and the norm to not get paid for your work."

And thought(now I could be wrong) isn't that basically an internship?

Music as a career? join a covers band,your band is probably shit anyway.

Haven't "musicians" or "artists" been happy at the downfall of the "music industry" of late anyway? Putting the power back in the hands of the artist or some shit? Go on then,do something with that power,and I don't mean fundit campaigns. Career bands were quick enough to suck up to the record companys when they were taking chances on bands but now they are gone everyones a crybaby.

I think you'll find that "of late" there refers to a period of uncertainty at least a decade ago. Since then most commentators worth their salt have been saying that what looked at the outset like the creation of a level playing field has instead decimated the mid level while leaving the upper echelons relatively untouched.

I don't think anyone here has referred to music as a viable "career" but to use the example someone else made of music being a cottage industry. Cottage industries make money. No one is making ice cream in their kitchen and then giving it away for free at the farmers market.

Yes, we do this because we love it but the simple message to the wider culture which surrounds what we do is that if you love us please make it easier on us to continue doing it.

Here's a suggestion:

Musicians band together and make a venue that will be rentable, at cost, to musicians. That venue will then give all profits made on a specific night to the bands.

That's a much easier and fairer solution than taxing the populace, or other musicians, to pay government sanctioned bands.

That's insane for several reasons

1. How would such a venue pay it's employees ?

2. The rental fee is part of the venue's profit margin, so in essence the band would be paying it's self.

3. Every band in Dublin already does this, and depending on the venue's fee breaking even on the door charge is the best you can hope for.

 

[MilanPan!c]

I still don't know why you are banging on about a how a scheme to create funding for music in ireland would cost the tax payer more money when in reality we already have such a fund and unfortunately it fails to provide for musicians. Like I said earlier and you completely ignored, your taxes fund the arts council of Ireland and the arts council of ireland still turn a completely blind eye to the existence of the irish independent music. The way the arts council funds project should be restructured (and I mean that in terms of all young artists not just musicians, the arts council has made some huge mistakes over the years and needs to be overhauled). Music in Ireland makes money for everyone except the musicians, that's the bottom line. More money than any other art in fact and the fact that it has been overlooked is a huge mistake. The UK arts council is already ahead of the game and regularly gives grants of up to £15,000 to bands.

The fact is that one saturday night at Whelan's puts more money back into the exchequer through sales of alcohol than any art gallery can in a month. It generates more revenue for the companies who provide the alcohol than any cinema can and yet when it comes down to the crunch the arts council are more ready to pump money into vanity projects than into grassroots music and the drinks companies are more willing to sponsor the Dublin Film festival than put any money in the pockets of what is basically their front line marketing. And like it or not that is how you are treated at the moment. Bands draw a crowd and sell booze. No venue gives a fuck about you beyond that and that has to change.

Further more lets use the example of IMRO I've played for years and never seen a cent from them I don't know anyone who has. Venues pay a license fee to IMRO in order to play music inside their venue. Let's say that as a working venue your license fee was waved if you were to pay money directly to bands who play in that venue. That's just one example of reallocating finances to the people who actually need it.

I'm fucking sick of you rubbing your fingers together like Seymour Skinner going "oh what about the taxes?" You're fucking wrong if you thought about it for five fucking seconds you'd realise your fucking wrong and yet still you persist. As for how many people would have to be hired to police any strategy ? I'd imagine creating what ? 3 jobs within in the arts would be something most people would be more than happy to see €0.03 per year to. And oh yes jobs put money back into the exchequer too. Just in case you hadn't noticed.




I think you'll find that "of late" there refers to a period of uncertainty at least a decade ago. Since then most commentators worth their salt have been saying that what looked at the outset like the creation of a level playing field has instead decimated the mid level while leaving the upper echelons relatively untouched.

I don't think anyone here has referred to music as a viable "career" but to use the example someone else made of music being a cottage industry. Cottage industries make money. No one is making ice cream in their kitchen and then giving it away for free at the farmers market.

Yes, we do this because we love it but the simple message to the wider culture which surrounds what we do is that if you love us please make it easier on us to continue doing it.

That's insane for several reasons

1. How would such a venue pay it's employees ?

2. The rental fee is part of the venue's profit margin, so in essence the band would be paying it's self.

3. Every band in Dublin already does this, and depending on the venue's fee breaking even on the door charge is the best you can hope for.

Lots here. I will endeavour to answer it all, but if I miss anything, so be it.

First, we have a fund that is WOEFULLY small compared to what is being suggested. Pretending that it's big enough to make a meaningful difference is dishonest. The Arts council budget is €56M for 2014.

Using the very low estimate that Whelans - just Whelans - has four musicians a day, 365 days a year, that they'd have to pay, and saying they got paid a paltry €5 per hour while onsite (4 hours each say) you're talking 30K, just for Whelans. Now a much more accurate figure, say 8-12 musicians a day, and you're suddenly hitting 100K for one venue, for one year. And that's giving the average musician in Dublin, what? 20€ every other month?

EDIT _ I Fucked up all this math. 8 musicians at minimum wage for 4 hours, 365 days a year, is actually closer to €100K.

That means that if the average venue is half as busy (some being more some being less) and there's 200 venues a year, the total figure is 10M, or 20% of the entire Arts Council funding.

So, is that worth it? Does the entire country want to spend €10M to pay local musicians in their pub minimum wage?

Also consider that the Arts council effectively loses all control of it's budget. And consider the average grant is about 20K, not €10M. - You'd also need to add in the cost of new laws, and new government employees.

And if no one thinks this is to help musicians make a living with music, are we simply doing this as a token gesture... a 10M euro token gesture? You can keep my €200/year and reinvest it in schools and healthcare.

BTW: you claim I ignored the Arts Council comment, I didn't. You can go find me response if you'd like.

Oh your numbered questions:

1. Employees pay is part of the cost. So they have to be paid before the musicians who rented it. Standard practice.

2. Paying yourself is what every small business person in this country does.

3. They do it, but they do it in a completely non-transparent way with no chance of seeing any money in the majority of small venues.

At least this way, a venue COULD exist where bands could - if they managed to bring people in - make money is a completely understandable and transparent way.

 

[dudley]

BLAH

playing for free = still dumb

 

[MilanPan!c]

BLAH

playing for free = still dumb

Luckily no one is forcing anyone to do such a dumb thing!

 

[washingcattle]

Lots here. I will endeavour to answer it all, but if I miss anything, so be it.

First, we have a fund that is WOEFULLY small compared to what is being suggested. Pretending that it's big enough to make a meaningful difference is dishonest. The Arts council budget is €56M for 2014.

Using the very low estimate that Whelans - just Whelans - has four musicians a day, 365 days a year, that they'd have to pay, and saying they got paid a paltry €5 per hour while onsite (4 hours each say) you're talking 30K, just for Whelans. Now a much more accurate figure, say 8-12 musicians a day, and you're suddenly hitting 100K for one venue, for one year. And that's giving the average musician in Dublin, what? 20€ every other month?

EDIT _ I Fucked up all this math. 8 musicians at minimum wage for 4 hours, 365 days a year, is actually closer to €100K.

That means that if the average venue is half as busy (some being more some being less) and there's 200 venues a year, the total figure is 10M, or 20% of the entire Arts Council funding.

So, is that worth it? Does the entire country want to spend €10M to pay local musicians in their pub minimum wage?

Also consider that the Arts council effectively loses all control of it's budget. And consider the average grant is about 20K, not €10M. - You'd also need to add in the cost of new laws, and new government employees.

And if no one thinks this is to help musicians make a living with music, are we simply doing this as a token gesture... a 10M euro token gesture? You can keep my €200/year and reinvest it in schools and healthcare.

BTW: you claim I ignored the Arts Council comment, I didn't. You can go find me response if you'd like.

Oh your numbered questions:

1. Employees pay is part of the cost. So they have to be paid before the musicians who rented it. Standard practice.

2. Paying yourself is what every small business person in this country does.

3. They do it, but they do it in a completely non-transparent way with no chance of seeing any money in the majority of small venues.

At least this way, a venue COULD exist where bands could - if they managed to bring people in - make money is a completely understandable and transparent way.

Where did you pluck €5 an hour from ? Still no one is saying they want to quit their day job and be a full time musician all we've been saying is that there has to be a way of playing gigs and being paid for them. It's not a cheap business to be involved in. If we bands could be guaranteed to break even on a gig (which is basically the guarantee you get from venues in Denmark etc. i.e no one there is quitting the day job either) it would be a fairer deal.

You must think we all want to be Beyonce when in reality all we want is money for petrol and a free pint and we're not even getting that for fuck sake. Do you even play fucking gigs ?

1. Wrong, if a venue handed over it's profits it wouldn't last long. Fact.

2. Wrong, the profits from their business pays them. Don't turn a profit don't get paid.

3. What the fuck does transparency have to do with handing over a fee to play a gig and therein being in debt ? It's fucking transparent as fuck as is.