Is the Irish Music Industry unethical/immoral to independent artists? (4 Viewers)

[ann post]

It's also a great example as it has an endless stream of live bands, many of them playing to empty rooms.

Would having less venues improve the crowd do you think?

 

[MilanPan!c]

Would having less venues improve the crowd do you think?

No

 

[MilanPan!c]

They could afford to if The government / arts council or whatever shared the cost, I think that's the point a few people have made.

No one is gonna see their taxes raised so that some punk band on a Tuesday in the Pint get paid. It's not gonna happen.

Your talking thousands and thousands of hours a year that would need to be paid and many if not the majority of those performances are empty or half-empty rooms.

I personally don't think it's moral to force people to pay taxes for that.

 

[nooleen]

so you're saying the arts council should be abolished?

 

[ernesto]

No one is gonna see their taxes raised so that some punk band on a Tuesday in the Pint get paid. It's not gonna happen.

Your talking thousands and thousands of hours a year that would need to be paid and many of not the majority of those performances are empty or half-empty rooms.

I personally don't think it's moral to force people to pay taxes for that.

For Working?

The government could give corporate sponsors tax breaks or what have you or some related financial raise to incentivise money going towards paying people, even the minimum of expenses so just playing a gig won't out you out of pocket nevermind actually being paid for their time and graft. Which of course is not an insane idea.

 

[MilanPan!c]

so you're saying the arts council should be abolished?

I'm saying that they should be allowed to decide what they spend their money on; subsidising every single gigging musician in the country is absurd. Forcing people to pay taxes for that is immoral. IMO. It's worse than forcing people to pay the salary of Ryan Turbridy.

 

[nooleen]

i can't believe you think the arts council should be abolished, that's terrible

 

[MilanPan!c]

For Working?

The government could give corporate sponsors tax breaks or what have you or some related financial raise to incentivise money going towards paying people, even the minimum of expenses so just playing a gig won't out you out of pocket let alone actually being paid for their time

Those incentives are tax money. Call them incentives, if it helps you feel better, but it's tax money.

And yes, no one is forcing anyone to play for free - that's not even vaguely happening ever.

Once that happens there's a moral issue, but until then bands are no different to shop owners that take no salary, etc. Many many self-employed people work for nothing or at a loss.

Pretending "art" deserves a different approach is kinda fine in theory, but in practice, paying thousands of crap bands to play to empty rooms is not a good use of tax money.

Fix schools and hospitals.

Fix public transport.

But paying shit bands? No way.

 

[MilanPan!c]

i can't believe you think the arts council should be abolished, that's terrible

I don't. And never said anything close to that.

I can't believe you think tax money should go to shit bands instead of schools and hospitals.

"Sorry we can't afford a special ed teacher, the government has to pay bands at the local pub instead."

 

[ann post]

No

So all the people who go to original music will stop going to gigs. I have doubts about your use of logic. And you skipped a few of my questions which is questionable.

 

[MilanPan!c]

So all the people who go to original music will stop going to gigs. I have doubts about your use of logic. And you skipped a few of my questions which is questionable.

Ask them again I just missed them.

As for your suggestion that a certain number of people are going to see gigs, no matter who playing, ergo less venues means larger crowds, it's seriously stupid.

By that logic if there was only one venue in Ireland it would be sold out every single night, no matter who was playing.

Who knows - maybe you believe that.

The truth is, most nights in most music venues, the crowd is people that chose to go see a band at that venue.

If that band wasn't playing the majority of punters wouldn't be there.

In fact, on a Tuesday night, when many venues aren't open, the venues that are are pretty typically empty.

So no, closing all the venues you think are unethical won't make the venues you happen to like wildly more popular; choice and options aren't destroying the live music scene.

 

[ernesto]

Those incentives are tax money. Call them incentives, if it helps you feel better, but it's tax money.

And yes, no one is forcing anyone to play for free - that's not even vaguely happening ever.

Once that happens there's a moral issue, but until then bands are no different to shop owners that take no salary, etc. Many many self-employed people work for nothing or at a loss.

Pretending "art" deserves a different approach is kinda fine in theory, but in practice, paying thousands of crap bands to play to empty rooms is not a good use of tax money.

Fix schools and hospitals.

Fix public transport.

But paying shit bands? No way.

So you think even Approaching the idea of a sliding scale or some form of subsidised monies or anything that could even tip the scales towards a balanced system is just mad?
Shooting down even the suggestion of figuring out a way to be more in line with proven sound European models seems a bit narrow minded.
especially when your response is that it's somehow preventing people from dying or being educated. Would you pay an extra €20 a year towards a fund of allowing musicians I be paid, like some sort of tax?
I'm not saying pay shit oasis cover bands playing to a horrified dog in a basement bar in athy because there could be a method of figuring out who gets what. Or any fucking idea I don't know

 

[ann post]

How about the logic that dublin grew at an exponential and unchecked rate for a very long period time and a lot of what was built at that time was based on sustainability that only related to the amount of cash that was floating about, and to consider a sort of music 2.0 environment of good sustainable venues then 'less' would probably be first on the list. The lads talking about DIY on this thread know a LOT about sustainable music.

See thread for questions I asked...

 

[GARYXKNIFEDX]

No one is gonna see their taxes raised so that some punk band on a Tuesday in the Pint get paid. It's not gonna happen.

I sincerely hope you are not saying there is a better band than "some punk band".

 

[ernesto]

I'd probably pay in to that gig to watch that dogs face and perhaps try and help him escape

 

[MilanPan!c]

So you think even Approaching the idea of a sliding scale or some form of subsidised monies or anything that could even tip the scales towards a balanced system is just mad?
Shooting down even the suggestion of figuring out a way to be more in line with proven sound European models seems a bit narrow minded.
especially when your response is that it's somehow preventing people from dying or being educated. Would you pay an extra €20 a year towards a fund of allowing musicians I be paid, like some sort of tax?
I'm not saying pay shit oasis cover bands playing to a horrified dog in a basement bar in athy because there could be a method of figuring out who gets what. Or any fucking idea I don't know

How many government employees should we hire to police this system where bands are deemed good enough to be paid?

If a band does one cover does it deserve payment?

What about bands playing a GBV tribute night? Are they now worthless, even though they're all original bands?

And sure, you can have €20 a year from me, but how much money do you think that would possibly mean to the average musician?

€100 a year?

A €10 a month?

And that tenner a month is worth how many new laws, government employees, taxes and whatnot?

That's the big leap forward?

 

[nooleen]

I don't. And never said anything close to that.

I can't believe you think tax money should go to shit bands instead of schools and hospitals.

i never said that, obviously i think free venues should be staffed by monkey butlers trained by the musicians until gigs start happening

i think that was blatantly clear from my initial statement

 

[MilanPan!c]

How about the logic that dublin grew at an exponential and unchecked rate for a very long period time and a lot of what was built at that time was based on sustainability that only related to the amount of cash that was floating about, and to consider a sort of music 2.0 environment of good sustainable venues then 'less' would probably be first on the list. The lads talking about DIY on this thread know a LOT about sustainable music.

See thread for questions I asked...

If you want me to answer them, post them again. It's a small ask.

As for the rest of your post - is that a question?

Reducing supply doesn't generate demand. It can raise value, but ONLY if the demand is consistent.

Demand for bands is extremely inconsistent. Heck, if there's a tv showing football next to a band playing, even some people that paid to see the band will spend half the gig staring at a screen.

Music has been greatly devalued, but reducing options won't increase it's value, just decrease opportunities for bands.

 

[ernesto]

How many government employees should we hire to police this system where bands are deemed good enough to be paid?

If a band does one cover does it deserve payment?

What about bands playing a GBV tribute night? Are they now worthless, even though they're all original bands?

And sure, you can have €20 a year from me, but how much money do you think that would possibly mean to the average musician?

€100 a year?

A €10 a month?

And that tenner a month is worth how many new laws, government employees, taxes and whatnot?

That's the big leap forward?

It could be. There's a hint of progress about it, worth trying it, it worked elsewhere.

You're kind of proving my point here in that you're making assumptions that shit would be implemented badly and without even considering possible alternative ways of doing it

 

[MilanPan!c]

i never said that, obviously i think free venues should be staffed by monkey butlers trained by the musicians until gigs start happening

i think that was blatantly clear from my initial statement

I know you didn't say it, in the same way I never said that the arts council should be shut down. It's helpful if you read posts instead of putting words in my mouth. It sucks when people do that huh?