Is the Irish Music Industry unethical/immoral to independent artists? (1 Viewer)

[MilanPan!c]

I've mentioned elsewhere before, but its nuts that a bar will pay a few hundred euro for a crew to play covers and the following night have maybe 12 musicians total running an original show for nothing. To me that's one of the roots of the the problem.

It's not nuts. Go to a venue that has a popular covers band playing and compare that crowd to the same night at - say - the workmans. Those bands are like DJs for a certain demo and they make money, because they help the venues make money.

How many empty venues have you been to on a Friday night? I've been to many, on originals nights, and few on covers bands nights.

 

[MilanPan!c]

Firstly i didn't say that there would be another tax I said that the venues would be given a tax incentive to hold gigs and pay bands. Gigs put money into the exchequer too so the more successful and frequent they are the more tax is recouped through sales of alcohol etc so I don't know where you got that idea from.

Secondly the attitude that bands will "happily" play for free is absolutely not true. They play fro free because there is no alternative and creating that alternative is vital.

As Ernesto pointed out the issue is cultural rather than financial. Ireland as a society hands out money to artists who routinely produce work which has little relevance to modern Ireland. What Ernesto is saying about diddly eye music is a little harsh but it is very close to the point. The fact is that we don't need to fund another play about the famine etc. We need to fund work which is contemporary and reflects ireland's art scene now. Right now, not the same grants to artists who've been practicing for 30 years but right now and musicians are part of that.

It's the attitude that we are nothing more than "indignant musicians" that holds us back.

No one is saying we want a hand out simply that there be some recognition that at a gig everyone working is earning something except the musicians and that is problematic. At a festival the same thing happens with local musicians being paid a pittance and are relegated to obscure time slots on tiny stages. On radio and television we're practically non existent.

The old fashioned attitude was that there are no great Irish bands because they don't go to england. Why would they considering how poorly we're treated at home who would have the confidence to try it further afield. The first time I played outside Ireland I was amazed when the venue gave us food, and a few free beers. At the end of the night when they paid us I nearly collapsed in shock.

The venue stuff treated us with respect instead of troublesome scum . Even that seems too much to ask for from some venues in Dublin.

Is that so much to ask ?

I want to respond to a few more points here.

I would agree that some forms of "culture" are wildly overvalued by government, in relation to their value to the average person. Opera say. Ballet. Shit related to historical tragedies. That's true enough.

But that's unrelated to the core issue, which is how much extra money you're casually handing over to musicians which may or may not generate any revenue for a venue.

Everyone is always amazed that so many US venues pay bands, but let me tell you, having played in small and large venues around the US there's a WHOLE lot different than just bands getting paid.

First, if you don't promote the crap out of a gig and get everyone possible to show up, there's a pretty decent chance your band won't get to play there again, for a long time.

If your crowd doesn't make the bar a certain amount of cash, good luck being booked again.

If a venue doesn't see flyers for the gig, you may not get booked again.

The list is pretty endless.

IF you're a shitty band with a load of friends, you can get very decent slots are good venues, while the awesome band with no crowd is relegated to first on on a Tuesday. And they're still expected to bring people to that gig, and flyer for it, and make the bar money.

Band will often be told EXACTLY how much the bar has made, as part of the band being paid. There's no mystery how it works.

That's pretty radically different to what happens here, where you CAN get a gig in a decent enough venue, bring four people, and get another gig in the same place three weeks later.

As for the AMOUNT you might make, well it's obviously a sliding scale.

One of my old bands routinely sold out a decent sized venue (3-400 people). We made the venue a LOT of cash and rarely saw more than $200 and free beer. Oh and it was usually $5 in.

People begged us to let them open for us, and we always chose someone and typically had to pay them ourselves.

Rehearsal space was expensive and the van we used to tour wasn't cheap. We sold merch, and that made us more most nights than any guarantee.

Sure, some countries pay bands, but they often pay them to work a lot harder promoting gigs than people do here, and they demand sales at the bar. That model is not something I am desperate to go back to, even for a couple hundred euro a month.

 

[MilanPan!c]

double post

 

[ann post]

It's not nuts. Go to a venue that has a popular covers band playing and compare that crowd to the same night at - say - the workmans. Those bands are like DJs for a certain demo and they make money, because they help the venues make money.

How many empty venues have you been to on a Friday night? I've been to many, on originals nights, and few on covers bands nights.

Anything can be changed. All you need is a legal rate of pay for showing up to a venue on agreement to entertain. I've been to packed originals nights where everyone is getting paid and likewise nobody. Do you think I haven't been to a covers night? As regards the question asked by the thread, do you think its moral to not pay people or are you just describing what you have seen?

 

[MilanPan!c]

Anything can be changed. All you need is a legal rate of pay for showing up to a venue on agreement to entertain. I've been to packed originals nights where everyone is getting paid and likewise nobody. Do you think I haven't been to a covers night? As regards the question asked by the thread, do you think its moral to not pay people or are you just describing what you have seen?

It's certainly moral to offer the opportunity to work for free.

As for a legal rate, that's pretty obviously a bad thing for venues which are suddenly going to have to fork out a lot of money on nights when no crowds materialise, which is most nights in many places. Good bye small venues I'd wager. And sure that would also squeeze out all but bands that COULD draw a crowd, as the bands now have to make money.

Once a band can guarantee their value to a venue then the venue DOES typically pay them, or the band finds somewhere that will. The balance of power shifts.

Festivals are a wholly other matter though, and as I'm sure you know not getting paid to play them as a local band is a worldwide thing, not just an Irish thing. Chances of that changing are basically nil.

 

[ann post]

As for a legal rate, that's pretty obviously a bad thing for venues which are suddenly going to have to fork out a lot of money on nights when no crowds materialise, which is most nights in many places. Good bye small venues I'd wager. And sure that would also squeeze out all but bands that COULD draw a crowd, as the bands now have to make money.

Once a band can guarantee their value to a venue then the venue DOES typically pay them, or the band finds somewhere that will. The balance of power shifts.

Festivals are a wholly other matter though, and as I'm sure you know not getting paid to play them as a local band is a worldwide thing, not just an Irish thing. Chances of that changing are basically nil.

Cover artists get paid when nobody shows up.

What do we need small venues who don't pay artists for? I'd rather have less venues paying ethically than many venues paying nobody. You seem to be hell bent on defending the present model by just saying 'its like that so i'll defend it'. Why not defend yourself, or your band mates? You seem to agree its unethical and immoral yet want to defend it, or explain it to people who have more experience of the same thing than you do. Why?

 

[MilanPan!c]

Cover artists get paid when nobody shows up.

What do we need small venues who don't pay artists for? I'd rather have less venues paying ethically than many venues paying nobody. You seem to be hell bent on defending the present model by just saying 'its like that so i'll defend it'. Why not defend yourself, or your band mates? You seem to agree its unethical and immoral yet want to defend it, or explain it to people who have more experience of the same thing than you do. Why?

Cover artists get paid to do a much different job. They also get paid to play weddings, ever wonder why?

There's NOTHING unethical about barter, at all. If you DON'T want what the venue is trading you for playing there, don't play there. IF you DO want it - play there. When people start forcing you to play gigs, it's a moral issue.

I am NOT hell bent on defending the current model as being great for me personally, but I do think that trying to say agreeing to play for free is some sort of moral failing is ridiculous.

On top of that, just how much money do you think you're gonna make? Enough to buy new guitar strings? Or enough to pay your rent and bills?

And hey, we both know the solution, play in a covers band, get paid, and do your hobby (that unpaid original music thing) in your spare time. But expecting venues to pay you is just ridiculous, especially considering how often their rooms are basically empty.

FTR: My band rarely plays live for this reason, among others. There's basically no point. It's fun for us, obviously, but there's just no real point, and all the issues you complain about aren't going away - and your solutions seem like they'd make things worse for live music in general. IMO.

So we avoid the pain, and avoid the hassle, and concentrate on things that help us - that benefit us - so we don't get depressed and quit.

The number one reason I saw bands break up in America - a place that pays bands - is the utter drudgery and stupidity of endless live gigs that pay a pittance.

 

[ann post]

Cover artists get paid to do a much different job. They also get paid to play weddings, ever wonder why?

do you have to start every post with an obvious statement as if you are talking to some person who just fell to earth?

How do you know my solutions make things worse if all you are considering at any point is the current status quo.

 

[nooleen]

do you have to start every post with an obvious statement as if you are talking to some person who just fell to earth?

internet arguments 101 dude, never heard of it?

 

[MilanPan!c]

do you have to start every post with an obvious statement as if you are talking to some person who just fell to earth?

How do you know my solutions make things worse if all you are considering at any point is the current status quo.

It seems obvious to me, but you compared them as if their pay justified yours.

Cover artists get paid when nobody shows up.

You said that you wouldn't mind losing venues. That means less options for musicians. That sounds worse. IMO.

What do we need small venues who don't pay artists for? I'd rather have less venues paying ethically than many venues paying nobody.

We both know that few venues pay no one, so making that hyperbolic comparison does no one any good. As for why a market is better with lots of options, well, I would hope that doesn't need to be explained. If a venues opens that's popular, and pays bands, then bands will favour it, obviously, and that will force other venues to keep up or lose out.

A simple solution that isn't going to happen, because venues can't afford to pay an extra 10-30 people multiple times a week, to get your respect. Neither can the government.

 

[Lili Marlene]

And yes, again, I say if any of you guys don't want to be "ripped off" by playing a festival, give me your slot; I'll do it without a complaint.

sorry i haven't actually read the rest of the thread yet

 

[GARYXKNIFEDX]

I've only been glancing at this thread,but am I right that it is no longer about the music industry but rather about venues(venues who generally are not the promoters,and it could be argued that if promoters did better work at promoting,which lets face it,they all could,would probably have more people attending said gig and therefore potentially be able to pay bands better) paying bands?

 

[nooleen]

Why aren’t all musicians getting paid for playing at Irish festivals this summer?

 

[egg_]

If my band got a free weekend ticket each to EP in return for a 30 min slot that would be the best value payday we have ever had, by a country mile. No promotion, no-one having to do the door, no sticking up posters. Show up, play for half an hour, get off, and in return get the equivalent of EUR250 each (well, less for 2 of us, cos we've one of those loyalty discounts)

 

[ann post]

If my band got a free weekend ticket each to EP in return for a 30 min slot that would be the best value payday we have ever had, by a country mile. No promotion, no-one having to do the door, no sticking up posters. Show up, play for half an hour, get off, and in return get the equivalent of EUR250 each (well, less for 2 of us, cos we've one of those loyalty discounts)

In fairness with work and the rest of things the bulk of my festival stuff is done on what I call a 'syringe' basis. I arrive an hour before, I play the show and I go home. I nearly need planning permission to stay overnight at one.

 

[shower another shower]

Retarded Cop got great money at 90% of the gigs that we played.

 

[shower another shower]

and it was easy. When a promoter rings and says he/she wants to book you, first thing you say in response is, "how much wonga do you pay?" if its not enough, you kindly pass on the gig.
If promoter aren't ringing you looking for a booking, thats the bands fault.

 

[Lili Marlene]

If a band can't exist exist without money, then the band shouln't exist.

 

[Jerry Twig]

Are there enough people working professionally in music in Ireland to call it an 'industry'? I doubt it

 

[ann post]

How many is an industry?