Is the Irish Music Industry unethical/immoral to independent artists? (2 Viewers)

[MilanPan!c]

Local bands get slots at festivals purely for market positioning reasons. Promoters don't give a fuck if your band plays a set or not, they just want scenesters around to make their festival cool. You're not being hired to do a job, you're like a model getting free tickets to something just because she's pretty

Thus the €200 haircut

 

[dudley]

Agreeing to play for free at one of these festivals is beyond dumb. just....you can do better...

and hwch, do you still have to pay to even be considered to play it?

 

[MilanPan!c]

Agreeing to play for free at one of these festivals is beyond dumb. just....you can do better...

and hwch, do you still have to pay to even be considered to play it?

Probably...

I don't mind playing for free, but I won't pay to be considered for a gig...

 

[GARYXKNIFEDX]

I wouldn't imagine the Irish music industry is any worse than anywhere else.

 

[Wingnut Records]

 

[washingcattle]

I wouldn't imagine the Irish music industry is any worse than anywhere else.

Absolutely not true, gigs in Denmark are subsidised by the government as cultural events. Thusly no one ever has to play for free.

As I've argued hundreds of times before the fact that bands play gigs in Ireland for free and release records for free is ridiculous. If every massive festival in Ireland was abolished and the sponsorship money from alcohol companies alone was redirected towards grass roots music we would all be in a much better position.

We have the bands, we just need to believe in ourselves and demand more.

 

[GARYXKNIFEDX]

Absolutely not true, gigs in Denmark are subsidised by the government as cultural events. Thusly no one ever has to play for free.

A fair point,and now you mention it,isn't Sweden similar?
But,what input has the music industry got with that?


(that's a genuine question,not being a smart arse)

 

[Cormcolash]

Finland has a system whereby something like 10% of pop music sales is reinvested as grants to support classical music, something along those lines

 

[washingcattle]

A fair point,and now you mention it,isn't Sweden similar?
But,what input has the music industry got with that?


(that's a genuine question,not being a smart arse)

I think it's that way in a few mainland countries. We played in a youth club sort of place in Germany and our fee was subsidised by the government.

The place was struggling for funding and the guy running the place had had his head kicked in by neo-Nazis a few months earlier so we gave donated the money back to the place.

I have no idea what extent the "industry" is involved in any funding.

 

[MilanPan!c]

Absolutely not true, gigs in Denmark are subsidised by the government as cultural events. Thusly no one ever has to play for free.

As I've argued hundreds of times before the fact that bands play gigs in Ireland for free and release records for free is ridiculous. If every massive festival in Ireland was abolished and the sponsorship money from alcohol companies alone was redirected towards grass roots music we would all be in a much better position.

We have the bands, we just need to believe in ourselves and demand more.

Ehhhhhh....

Maybe if every band did that for a few years... Maybe... But... Ireland isn't Denmark. It's not gonna be any time soon.

Ireland is more cut throat than the US or the UK as far as music is concerned; it's astonishing.

Aiming at tax payer subsidised punk gigs is not happening in Ireland any time in your life. I'd wager pretty much anything on that.

 

[washingcattle]

Ehhhhhh....

Maybe if every band did that for a few years... Maybe... But... Ireland isn't Denmark. It's not gonna be any time soon.

Ireland is more cut throat than the US or the UK as far as music is concerned; it's astonishing.

Aiming at tax payer subsidised punk gigs is not happening in Ireland any time in your life. I'd wager pretty much anything on that.

To be clear. I didn't suggest tax payer subsidised punk gigs. I suggested that the alcoholic drinks companies which have no problem putting their name on every festival of music or art in the country put their money behind the grassroots events which routinely bring in customers to bars every night of the week.

 

[washingcattle]

Actually to take this a bit further if the government wanted to do anything for us the least they could do is to do the venues a solid by giving them some sort of tax break. Technically we as artists already have a tax break. It would be great to live in a world where the venues paid the performers but the only way that could happen is with some sort of incentive to do so. Thusly corporate sponsorship (which i know a lot of people will despise the idea of and yet if they play in a band in a bar they are part of that particular commercial enterprise anyway) and governmental tax incentives could make that happen.

No we'll never see government sponsored punk gigs. However in all the spending on the arts music, grassroots music like what we do is routinely overlooked and that could easily be addressed because after all it is one of the few forms of art in which it is possible for the artist and venue to make money.

Like I've said before. I don't have all the answers but firstly we have to realise that there is a problem and that we could do better.

 

[Lili Marlene]

Like I've said before. I don't have all the answers

wait, what?

 

[washingcattle]

wait, what?

Ha, I knew that would get a reaction.

I should have had a row of smuggys and one of these after that sentence

 

[MilanPan!c]

To be clear. I didn't suggest tax payer subsidised punk gigs. I suggested that the alcoholic drinks companies which have no problem putting their name on every festival of music or art in the country put their money behind the grassroots events which routinely bring in customers to bars every night of the week.

Actually to take this a bit further if the government wanted to do anything for us the least they could do is to do the venues a solid by giving them some sort of tax break. Technically we as artists already have a tax break. It would be great to live in a world where the venues paid the performers but the only way that could happen is with some sort of incentive to do so. Thusly corporate sponsorship (which i know a lot of people will despise the idea of and yet if they play in a band in a bar they are part of that particular commercial enterprise anyway) and governmental tax incentives could make that happen.

No we'll never see government sponsored punk gigs. However in all the spending on the arts music, grassroots music like what we do is routinely overlooked and that could easily be addressed because after all it is one of the few forms of art in which it is possible for the artist and venue to make money.

Like I've said before. I don't have all the answers but firstly we have to realise that there is a problem and that we could do better.

That's all fair and good, but I doubt any industry is going to calmly sit buy and take another tax, just so local bands ge paid a few hundred euro to play a gig. And believe me when I say business has much more influence over government policy that musicians do, even unionised ones.

I am all for aspirationally trying to make things better, but... nothing gonna change any time soon. Venue KNOW that bands will happily not only pay for nothing, but in many cases pay to even get a gig. They also know that if 50 bands refuse to play EP because of €300/each, 50 others will play for nothing. Happily.

So where the pressure coming from then? Some bands that are already playing the festival circuit that think they need an extra grand a year from beer companies?

Is that really enough of an issue to get anyone other than a few indignant musicians motivated?

I seriously doubt it is.

 

[hermie]

I am all for aspirationally trying to make things better, but...

It doesn't actually sound like you are though really. It appears to me that you're happy to do gigs for free and hold out aspirational hopes of "making it" within the current industry model. Which is absolutely fine, just don't ridicule others who dare to think differently.

The fact of the matter is that for a country that prides itself on it's achievements in the arts, even sells itself abroad on said achievements, we do fuck all to nurture indigenous talent here. Particularly if you operate in non-traditional modes. Denmark isn't an isolated case of a country that puts us to shame on a grassroots level. I've played with Aussie bands whose tour was funded by their arts council. I don't think it's a coincidence that Canada, the country that punches above its weight more than any other in terms of bottom-up musical success stories, also has the best grassroots programs. One of my favourite albums of the last 10 years, Miracle Fortress' debut was entirely funded by the Canadian Arts council to give but one example.

Compare that to here where the majority of funding goes to diddley-eye outfits peddling their wears on Paddy's Day somewhere abroad. Or where in one instance a certain fund gave 3 out of 5 grants to projects in which a member of the judging panel was involved.

And then there's the monopolies. MCD for big gigs, Harmonic for smaller ones and FMC for showcase and funding. Situations where if literally one person doesn't like the cut of your jib your toast.

Certainly nobody owes you anything, particularly starting out. It's not the monetary value of the payment involved, it's that one good gig often leads to another. And that a culture of encouragement and healthy oneupmanship can have a knock-on affect.

 

[ann post]

I've mentioned elsewhere before, but its nuts that a bar will pay a few hundred euro for a crew to play covers and the following night have maybe 12 musicians total running an original show for nothing. To me that's one of the roots of the the problem.

 

[washingcattle]

That's all fair and good, but I doubt any industry is going to calmly sit buy and take another tax, just so local bands ge paid a few hundred euro to play a gig. And believe me when I say business has much more influence over government policy that musicians do, even unionised ones.

I am all for aspirationally trying to make things better, but... nothing gonna change any time soon. Venue KNOW that bands will happily not only pay for nothing, but in many cases pay to even get a gig. They also know that if 50 bands refuse to play EP because of €300/each, 50 others will play for nothing. Happily.

So where the pressure coming from then? Some bands that are already playing the festival circuit that think they need an extra grand a year from beer companies?

Is that really enough of an issue to get anyone other than a few indignant musicians motivated?

I seriously doubt it is.

Firstly i didn't say that there would be another tax I said that the venues would be given a tax incentive to hold gigs and pay bands. Gigs put money into the exchequer too so the more successful and frequent they are the more tax is recouped through sales of alcohol etc so I don't know where you got that idea from.

Secondly the attitude that bands will "happily" play for free is absolutely not true. They play fro free because there is no alternative and creating that alternative is vital.

As Ernesto pointed out the issue is cultural rather than financial. Ireland as a society hands out money to artists who routinely produce work which has little relevance to modern Ireland. What Ernesto is saying about diddly eye music is a little harsh but it is very close to the point. The fact is that we don't need to fund another play about the famine etc. We need to fund work which is contemporary and reflects ireland's art scene now. Right now, not the same grants to artists who've been practicing for 30 years but right now and musicians are part of that.

It's the attitude that we are nothing more than "indignant musicians" that holds us back.

No one is saying we want a hand out simply that there be some recognition that at a gig everyone working is earning something except the musicians and that is problematic. At a festival the same thing happens with local musicians being paid a pittance and are relegated to obscure time slots on tiny stages. On radio and television we're practically non existent.

The old fashioned attitude was that there are no great Irish bands because they don't go to england. Why would they considering how poorly we're treated at home who would have the confidence to try it further afield. The first time I played outside Ireland I was amazed when the venue gave us food, and a few free beers. At the end of the night when they paid us I nearly collapsed in shock.

The venue stuff treated us with respect instead of troublesome scum . Even that seems too much to ask for from some venues in Dublin.

Is that so much to ask ?

 

[MilanPan!c]

It doesn't actually sound like you are though really. It appears to me that you're happy to do gigs for free and hold out aspirational hopes of "making it" within the current industry model. Which is absolutely fine, just don't ridicule others who dare to think differently.

The fact of the matter is that for a country that prides itself on it's achievements in the arts, even sells itself abroad on said achievements, we do fuck all to nurture indigenous talent here. Particularly if you operate in non-traditional modes. Denmark isn't an isolated case of a country that puts us to shame on a grassroots level. I've played with Aussie bands whose tour was funded by their arts council. I don't think it's a coincidence that Canada, the country that punches above its weight more than any other in terms of bottom-up musical success stories, also has the best grassroots programs. One of my favourite albums of the last 10 years, Miracle Fortress' debut was entirely funded by the Canadian Arts council to give but one example.

Compare that to here where the majority of funding goes to diddley-eye outfits peddling their wears on Paddy's Day somewhere abroad. Or where in one instance a certain fund gave 3 out of 5 grants to projects in which a member of the judging panel was involved.

And then there's the monopolies. MCD for big gigs, Harmonic for smaller ones and FMC for showcase and funding. Situations where if literally one person doesn't like the cut of your jib your toast.

Certainly nobody owes you anything, particularly starting out. It's not the monetary value of the payment involved, it's that one good gig often leads to another. And that a culture of encouragement and healthy oneupmanship can have a knock-on affect.

I don't think you understand my position. Let me explain it to you.

I would love money to rain from the sky, and sure wouldn't it even better if the money game from the pockets of criminals, but that's not likely to happen.

I can pretend it might, in an attempt to "make it rain," but I would only be deluding myself.

The chances of the booze industry paying local band to play whelans or the pint, or electric picnic, no matter how loudly musicians complain about being broke, is basically zero. That's not because of my attitude, but because no one will make them.

I'd completely agree that the entire Irish music industry is basically one big monopoly, but again, so what? Do you think you're gonna shift them?

I'm all for wishing this would change, but so far no one has made an argument that makes me think there's a chance in hell it will.

Hope that's clear.

And yes, again, I say if any of you guys don't want to be "ripped off" by playing a festival, give me your slot; I'll do it without a complaint.

 

[MilanPan!c]

Firstly i didn't say that there would be another tax I said that the venues would be given a tax incentive to hold gigs and pay bands. Gigs put money into the exchequer too so the more successful and frequent they are the more tax is recouped through sales of alcohol etc so I don't know where you got that idea from.

Secondly the attitude that bands will "happily" play for free is absolutely not true. They play fro free because there is no alternative and creating that alternative is vital.

As Ernesto pointed out the issue is cultural rather than financial. Ireland as a society hands out money to artists who routinely produce work which has little relevance to modern Ireland. What Ernesto is saying about diddly eye music is a little harsh but it is very close to the point. The fact is that we don't need to fund another play about the famine etc. We need to fund work which is contemporary and reflects ireland's art scene now. Right now, not the same grants to artists who've been practicing for 30 years but right now and musicians are part of that.

It's the attitude that we are nothing more than "indignant musicians" that holds us back.

No one is saying we want a hand out simply that there be some recognition that at a gig everyone working is earning something except the musicians and that is problematic. At a festival the same thing happens with local musicians being paid a pittance and are relegated to obscure time slots on tiny stages. On radio and television we're practically non existent.

The old fashioned attitude was that there are no great Irish bands because they don't go to england. Why would they considering how poorly we're treated at home who would have the confidence to try it further afield. The first time I played outside Ireland I was amazed when the venue gave us food, and a few free beers. At the end of the night when they paid us I nearly collapsed in shock.

The venue stuff treated us with respect instead of troublesome scum . Even that seems too much to ask for from some venues in Dublin.

Is that so much to ask ?

When I said bands will happily pay for free I mean: if one band refuses there's a long line of others that will. Hope that's more clear.

Ireland has many problems when it comes to the music industry, and most of them have to do with the size of the country, and it's population. People can easily rip off bands, and punters and no one will do any thing about it, which you yourself no.

As for a tax subsidy scheme, how exactly is that going to happen? The money has to come from somewhere, does it not? What group is going to pay more/make less to pay the bands at Whelans on a Tuesday night?

Or do you just think that Whelans is going to get 1400+/week in tax credits? Now multiply that out by every venue in Dublin, then Ireland.

It's not reasonable to think the government is simply going to donate 10s of thousands a year to musicians. It's also not reasonable to think that industry is gonna hand over thousands and thousands without being forced, or that government is going to force them for your benefit.

Oh, I wish they would, but they won't.