Ireland (3 Viewers)

[magicbastarder]

Easy tiger. kids or not is obviously largely a choice, but the idea that it is an environmental positive/negative axis - how would you build that as a realistic point?

sounds trivial to me? fewer people = fewer drains on resources. you're not feeding extra mouths, less electricity being used etc. all other things being equal, of course.

 

[nuke terrorist]

that's because the irish government has made a very conscious decision to concentrate on dairy and beef production. one thing we do well in this country is grow grass, so we've specialised in cows.

Yep, we are led by awful eejits.
the dairy herd in Ireland increased by a huge margin in the last decade or two - insane. the government fully encouraged this policy and now there are 1.6 million cows.
I worked on a piggery from 1990-93 for about 55 weeks in total. there was three artic truck loads of feed coming in every week and the water consumption is far more staggering.

the pigs ate 8 kg of feed for every 1 kg they gained in weight.

 

[magicbastarder]

Yep, we are led by awful eejits.

not just us. it's standard procedure the world over; specialise in what you're good at. we're better at 'growing' beef than spain is, and spain is better at growing fruit than we are. so we grow the beef, spain grows the fruit, and we swap.
it has its upsides in one sense, and obvious downsides in others.

 

[nuke terrorist]

not just us. it's standard procedure the world over; specialise in what you're good at. we're better at 'growing' beef than spain is, and spain is better at growing fruit than we are. so we grow the beef, spain grows the fruit, and we swap.
it has its upsides in one sense, and obvious downsides in others.

17 year old me:
''We should just eat the feed we give the farm animals. that would solve everything!''

 

[JohnnyRaz]

Less people equals less consumption. Not that I have any issue with people having kids or cars or holidays. Not a fan of eugenics at all really.

Here's another probably unrelated point to worry about. Then there's the whole individual carbon footprint being invented by an oil company to green wash their continued environmental destruction.

Forbes

Forbes is a global media company, focusing on business, investing, technology, entrepreneurship, leadership, and lifestyle.

www.forbes.com

as the recycling concept was developed by the packaging industry to push the problem onto the consumer.

 

[JohnnyRaz]

17 year old me:
''We should just eat the feed we give the farm animals. that would solve everything!''

19 year old me, working in an animal feeds plant would probably have disagreed! (tallow used to be used as a lubricant for cattle nuts - at the time anyway)

 

[Space]

as the recycling concept was developed by the packaging industry to push the problem onto the consumer.

And PBH needs listeners for his podcast so RTE can sell ads

 

[JohnnyRaz]

And PBH needs listeners for his podcast so RTE can sell ads

that said - it is a balance between personal choice and societal/governmental changes. one can drive the other in a net positive or negative direction.

however - we're most likely fucked in the medium term - even if we manage to avoid the worst of the worst outcomes.

 

[ann post]

that's because the irish government has made a very conscious decision to concentrate on dairy and beef production. one thing we do well in this country is grow grass, so we've specialised in cows.

I spent a weekend drinking with a vet who'd worked in the USA and Ireland and England at one point. He was saying the depth that dairy (and by extension beef) has entrenched itself in politics globally is unreal and not a lot happens without thier stamp of approval.

That hate-watch posh farmer youtube i watched makes the odd broken clock style point about things - one was that he can move to grain and veg farming for a lot of his land, but in certain pockets due to sun, geography and drainage the only thing that can be done with minimal energy is to let cows wander about. Not really a justifaction for present day practices but it was something i'd not been aware of. Up to that point my full knowledge was sorta centred around meat takes up 3 times what veg does land wise, just there are complexities to that statemetn

 

[Space]

that said - it is a balance between personal choice and societal/governmental changes. one can drive the other in a net positive or negative direction.

however - we're most likely fucked in the medium term - even if we manage to avoid the worst of the worst outcomes.

Corporate change is what's needed and as long as the majority of the world subscribes to free market capitalism that won't change.

The time to make a difference was before I'd studied climate science in the mid 2000s and there's been fuck all done since bar the afformentioned attempt to shift more of the blame onto individual (and perhaps societal) responsibility.

 

[ann post]

sounds trivial to me? fewer people = fewer drains on resources. you're not feeding extra mouths, less electricity being used etc. all other things being equal, of course.

A small amount of people drain the largest amount of resources - it's entirely a behavouir equation. Maybe we can rely less on mechanisation through diesel in years to come and actually need a large labour force rather than a dwindling aging population. At best it's an oxymoron, at worst it's a non thought out glib maths thing that people roll out without thinking abotu

 

[Space]

A small amount of people drain the largest amount of resources - it's entirely a behavouir equation. Maybe we can rely less on mechanisation through diesel in years to come and actually need a large labour force rather than a dwindling aging population. At best it's an oxymoron, at worst it's a non thought out glib maths thing that people roll out without thinking abotu

At worst it's essentially eugenics or malthusian if ya prefer.

 

[ann post]

At worst it's essentially eugenics or malthusian if ya prefer.

Nah I'm not advocating for anything here.

It just think the link people make is a bit of a correlation/causation thing.

 

[GO]

Yep, we are led by awful eejits.
the dairy herd in Ireland increased by a huge margin in the last decade or two - insane. the government fully encouraged this policy and now there are 1.6 million cows.
I worked on a piggery from 1990-93 for about 55 weeks in total. there was three artic truck loads of feed coming in every week and the water consumption is far more staggering.

the pigs ate 8 kg of feed for every 1 kg they gained in weight.

 

[egg_]

Corporate change is what's needed and as long as the majority of the world subscribes to free market capitalism that won't change

I don't really see that our political/economic system makes much of a difference - the problem is we discovered fossil fuels, and we burned them. Would we have burned them more slowly under another system? Maybe, but I really can't imagine humans finding something that's so useful, and then not using it. Maybe if the world was some kind of theocracy and oil and coal were sacred?

 

[Space]

I don't really see that our political/economic system makes much of a difference - the problem is we discovered fossil fuels, and we burned them. Would we have burned them more slowly under another system? Maybe, but I really can't imagine humans finding something that's so useful, and then not using it. Maybe if the world was some kind of theocracy and oil and coal were sacred?

It's the infinite growth of this economic system that's the issue. Infinite growth with finite resources doesn't work.

 

[magicbastarder]

whatever about the cause of where we've found ourselves, the economic system we've adopted has made it far harder to put the brakes on it.

 

[egg_]

It's the infinite growth of this economic system that's the issue. Infinite growth with finite resources doesn't work.

"Infinite growth" is just an abstraction - it's burning fossil fuels that's the issue. Can you imagine any economic system in which we'd have left the oil and coal in the ground?

I also can't imagine any human social system where we'd be easily able to put the brakes on at this stage, unless maybe a global monarchy

 

[Space]

"Infinite growth" is just an abstraction - it's burning fossil fuels that's the issue. Can you imagine any economic system in which we'd have left the oil and coal in the ground?

I also can't imagine any human social system where we'd be easily able to put the brakes on at this stage, unless maybe a global monarchy

If we burnt less fossil fuels we wouldn't be in the same situation so I disagree with you there. The capitalist system as is relies on the concept of infinite growth. Like we've3 been burning coal since cave man days yet haven't been accelerating climate change since then. (or have we?)

 

[egg_]

Like we've3 been burning coal since cave man days yet haven't been accelerating climate change since then. (or have we?)

It's unclear, but there is some evidence that we have, see Early anthropocene - Wikipedia ... also I've an archaelogist friend who talks about the climate impact of European deforestation in the middle ages, but can't find anything online about it right now

Maybe without capitalism we'd have burned the fossil fuels slower, but eventually we'd burn enough of them to get to where we are now under any system (unless maybe the human population is very small?)