Unpopular Opinions (2 Viewers)

[JohnnyRaz]

Presume their thinking is along the lines of "most of their vermin will have done some sort of time and we won't be getting any more of them, so we'll just protect our chaps from here on out."

It a rare sight to see Sinn Fein, the DUP and the house of lords on the same page all the same (admittedly, less so in the case of the HoL).

 

[Space]

It's mostly a cover of the amount of secret/double agents involved in the troubles imo. If no one is getting prosecuted then they most likely won't give up any secrets either.

Probably a child abuse in NI angle to it too.

 

[Deadmanposting]

Half surprised there's been no mention of the legacy bill here over the last few days.

Any of yas paying attention or care about it? Maybe the Wolfe Tones discourse across southern media worked as a distraction.

It is one of those things that is so depressing to even think about, I can't summon the enthusiasm to talk about

Like we can see what they're doing. We see the motivation. We see the injustice of it. All of us.
And no one can stop it.
The ruthless exercise of power.
This is the English at their core; fuck all y'all.

 

[Space]

It is one of those things that is so depressing to even think about, I can't summon the enthusiasm to talk about

Like we can see what they're doing. We see the motivation. We see the injustice of it. All of us.
And no one can stop it.
The ruthless exercise of power.
This is the English at their core; fuck all y'all.

Yep I agree but as dark as it is we must talk about it and remember it.

 

[nuke terrorist]

I guess from where i'm looking - I've kinda devoted the last year to history podcasts - very little to do with Ireland and more about getting a comprehension of these names like alexander the great and the dynasties in China ETC ETC. The more i listen to historians the more I see the Irish historical view as a bit unhealthy.

So yes I talk about things 100 years ago.

Like TLDR history is primarily empires taking things from people till they get too indulgent to sustain the campaign, rince and repeat for thousands of years. We are in an interesting spot where we've gone from being the invaded to being the indulgents in about one generation - and what I see opinion wise is that in this affluent space it gets easy to ignore how short a time we actually have civil rights in the grand scheme of things. People want that bit to blur into the background because like nearly every civil rights struggle against an empire in history, violence was one of the gears that turned it and it just isn't easy to accept considering the lives we have now. I'm more into learning from it. Like I have to accept it happened, I have to accept that in that arena terrible things happened to innocent people, I have to accept the violent roles of the english government and their terrorist allies, I have to accept that I will live among both cultures for my whole life and I have to look at how the south reacted when it all became at bit 1916 up north the the 70s. It's history - we learn from it or we repeat it

Here's that quote from wikipedia

The period of Irish history from 2016-to end of the Civil War has been poured over endlessly.
The semi failed Irish state in the decades that followed it has not
been given the same scrunity.

If ever a country did the same foolish things repeatedly it was Ireland.


People in general make similar mistakes in every generation and I can't do a thing about it.
People have the right to be foolish and our time is rapidly running out.

All the nationalism in Irish history winning out over social issues is really depressing.
Apart from sport I don't care about being Irish, never did really.

 

[Unicron]

The semi failed Irish state in the decades that followed it has not
been given the same scrunity.

If ever a country did the same foolish things repeatedly it was Ireland.

Ohhh, here's one of my Irish history hot takes. For all their sectarianism and bigotry the Unionists who were all "home rule is Rome rule," they weren't exactly wrong.

However many of those who expressed that view may have been on board with some of the social policies imposed due to it (abortion bans, contraceptive bans, criminalisation of homosexual acts)

 

[nuke terrorist]

Ohhh, here's one of my Irish history hot takes. For all their sectarianism and bigotry the Unionists who were all "home rule is Rome rule," they weren't exactly wrong.

However many of those who expressed that view may have been on board with some of the social policies imposed due to it (abortion bans, contraceptive bans, criminalisation of homosexual acts)

Ireland had fairly extreme censorship until the early 60s. Brian Lenihan as a young minister brought in the legislation to change this.
By the time I remember Lenihan Sr. he was considered very old guard

On social issues the Republic of Ireland had an appalling track record until very recently.

 

[ann post]

Ohhh, here's one of my Irish history hot takes. For all their sectarianism and bigotry the Unionists who were all "home rule is Rome rule," they weren't exactly wrong.

However many of those who expressed that view may have been on board with some of the social policies imposed due to it (abortion bans, contraceptive bans, criminalisation of homosexual acts)

I mean while like they need a catchphrase there is a truth to it. It's hard to find a place in the western world that doesn't have religion embedded in it one way or another but we most certainly were on the higher %'s of it.

On the other hand what i'd consider is that without transitioning to rome role, you'd be looking at gerrymandering and possibly not transitioning to a one man one vote scenario - theres a good evidence base for that being what would happen because it did happen. But beyond the speculation side of things - whats important is that having the autonomy to make our own terrible decisions - and if being a semi rome based state is what we do, it's our own fuck up to make.

EDIT: i thought i'd put this in, but no tech economy in ireland due to lack to tax havening powers.

(back to speculation with numbers)
alternate timeline 1 (no revolution or northern ireland civil rights movement) : having a minimal voting input into something like thatcherism, or more or less anything.
By numbers, if we had equal representation in voting we'd have been about 2.5% of voting public in 1980 in the UK.
No TG4, Cultural annexation completed, my local wouldn't exist. No italia 90 though oddly we'd probably have premier league team. No GAA.

alternative timeline 2 (fully detatched, 32 - 35 county ireland)
possible lower influence from rome in state rule due to influence of unionist voting block. Derry airport is second airport in country. Rail network possibly still partially viable. much larger USA influence in things like shannon. speaking more irish and more german. Border county black econonmies never exist, so crime would probably be more attractive in port towns and cities. Antrim have more all-irelands.

 

[JohnnyRaz]

I mean while like they need a catchphrase there is a truth to it. It's hard to find a place in the western world that doesn't have religion embedded in it one way or another but we most certainly were on the higher %'s of it.

On the other hand what i'd consider is that without transitioning to rome role, you'd be looking at gerrymandering and possibly not transitioning to a one man one vote scenario - theres a good evidence base for that being what would happen because it did happen. But beyond the speculation side of things - whats important is that having the autonomy to make our own terrible decisions - and if being a semi rome based state is what we do, it's our own fuck up to make.

EDIT: i thought i'd put this in, but no tech economy in ireland due to lack to tax havening powers.

(back to speculation with numbers)
alternate timeline 1 (no revolution or northern ireland civil rights movement) : having a minimal voting input into something like thatcherism, or more or less anything.
By numbers, if we had equal representation in voting we'd have been about 2.5% of voting public in 1980 in the UK.
No TG4, Cultural annexation completed, my local wouldn't exist. No italia 90 though oddly we'd probably have premier league team. No GAA.

alternative timeline 2 (fully detatched, 32 - 35 county ireland)
possible lower influence from rome in state rule due to influence of unionist voting block. Derry airport is second airport in country. Rail network possibly still partially viable. much larger USA influence in things like shannon. speaking more irish and more german. Border county black econonmies never exist, so crime would probably be more attractive in port towns and cities. Antrim have more all-irelands.

The gerrymandering (and denial of civil rights more generally) in the north was in the context of the unionists trying to preserve a permanent political majority in 'their' statelet, where their were (at the time of formation) the majority in population terms - not sure if that would have translated across the whole Island context where they would have been the minority..(although the situation may have been reversed) - i.e I don't think the influence catholic church can be credited with ensuring a (relatively) fairer electoral system.

Would agree with the main argument of your alternate 1 (although the cultural aspects, GAA, language etc. is not a given - look at the welsh language for example) - we'd be a more fucked scotland in other ways. I think Alternate 2 probably overlooks the likelihood of civil war in the 1920s or 30s...

 

[Space]

I mean while like they need a catchphrase there is a truth to it. It's hard to find a place in the western world that doesn't have religion embedded in it one way or another but we most certainly were on the higher %'s of it.

On the other hand what i'd consider is that without transitioning to rome role, you'd be looking at gerrymandering and possibly not transitioning to a one man one vote scenario - theres a good evidence base for that being what would happen because it did happen. But beyond the speculation side of things - whats important is that having the autonomy to make our own terrible decisions - and if being a semi rome based state is what we do, it's our own fuck up to make.

EDIT: i thought i'd put this in, but no tech economy in ireland due to lack to tax havening powers.

(back to speculation with numbers)
alternate timeline 1 (no revolution or northern ireland civil rights movement) : having a minimal voting input into something like thatcherism, or more or less anything.
By numbers, if we had equal representation in voting we'd have been about 2.5% of voting public in 1980 in the UK.
No TG4, Cultural annexation completed, my local wouldn't exist. No italia 90 though oddly we'd probably have premier league team. No GAA.

alternative timeline 2 (fully detatched, 32 - 35 county ireland)
possible lower influence from rome in state rule due to influence of unionist voting block. Derry airport is second airport in country. Rail network possibly still partially viable. much larger USA influence in things like shannon. speaking more irish and more german. Border county black econonmies never exist, so crime would probably be more attractive in port towns and cities. Antrim have more all-irelands.

What's your local?

 

[ann post]

The gerrymandering (and denial of civil rights more generally) in the north was in the context of the unionists trying to preserve a permanent political majority in 'their' statelet, where their were (at the time of formation) the majority in population terms - not sure if that would have translated across the whole Island context where they would have been the minority..(although the situation may have been reversed)

Would agree with the main argument of your alternate 1 (although the cultural aspects, GAA, language etc. is not a given - look at the welsh language for example) - we'd be a more fucked scotland in other ways. I think Alternate 2 probably overlooks the likelihood of civil war in the 1920s or 30s...

Was the civil war not fought on the basis of the six counties?

Anywhooo like i'm deep into speculation here but it's fun for thinking - I was sorta thinking if you'd a failed 1916 scenario, post ww1 westminster would have tightened the screws on dublin if they hadn't sent the whole of the uprising survivors to the ww1 frontline already - if we were let vote at all they'd be making sure it'd have minimal impact - we'd be 10% of the UK population in 1920. - and the one man one vote thing would be a 50/50 when it came to that being removed - I was suspecting a more depressing post-thatcher rural wales type scenario. Also what i totally overlooked is that being in the UK in ww2 derry Dublin and Shannon would have been on the German UK targets lists and you'd have all sorts of mad shit going on here around the fjords.

At least we'd be prodestants though.

 

[ann post]

What's your local?

I'm not doxing myself and I have at least 3.

 

[ann post]

Also interesting (for me) to think about is what becomes of big characters. UTM often talks about how not to dwell on what Bertie Ahern did in Ireland, moreso imagine what he'd have done if he was from North Korea, because at heart he was going to do whatever he had to to get power and keep it - thats the person. Same of Iain Paisley or any major player in the last 100 years. Drop them in either Ireland united or west britain isles or whatever we'd be reffered to you'd probably sill know their names.

 

[JohnnyRaz]

Was the civil war not fought on the basis of the six counties?

Anywhooo like i'm deep into speculation here but it's fun for thinking - I was sorta thinking if you'd a failed 1916 scenario, post ww1 westminster would have tightened the screws on dublin if they hadn't sent the whole of the uprising survivors to the ww1 frontline already - if we were let vote at all they'd be making sure it'd have minimal impact - we'd be 10% of the UK population in 1920. - and the one man one vote thing would be a 50/50 when it came to that being removed - I was suspecting a more depressing post-thatcher rural wales type scenario. Also what i totally overlooked is that being in the UK in ww2 derry Dublin and Shannon would have been on the German UK targets lists and you'd have all sorts of mad shit going on here around the fjords.

At least we'd be prodestants though.

I'm thinking more along the lines of the unionist:nationalist conflict. I think a more likely counterfactual for a 32 country republic would have been civil war, some kind of federalist compromise, and constant flare ups.(which we had - but in a different context with different actors)

and getting into the friday morning counterfactuals.

The unionist minority have the support of the WASPs in USA, and possibly Germany/Nrt europe in their struggle against their catholic oppressors. As a result there's no post civil war 'demilitarization' of the south. we stumble into a semi fascist dictorship led by the hero of the independence struggle.. Michael Colins.

Colins sides with the Nazis in WWII, we get the shit bombed out of our cities by the 8 air force, but we get the Marshall plan..

 

[ann post]

I'm thinking more along the lines of the unionist:nationalist conflict. I think a more likely counterfactual for a 32 country republic would have been civil war, some kind of federalist compromise, and constant flare ups.(which we had - but in a different context with different actors)

and getting into the friday morning counterfactuals.

The unionist minority have the support of the WASPs in USA, and possibly Germany/Nrt europe in their struggle against their catholic oppressors. As a result there's no post civil war 'demilitarization' of the south. we stumble into a semi fascist dictorship led by the hero of the independence struggle.. Michael Colins.

Colins sides with the Nazis in WWII, we get the shit bombed out of our cities by the 8 air force, but we get the Marshall plan..

If collins sided with the Nazis do you think they would done stupid shit like barbarossa?
We'd be driving about in VW beetles with one helix of DNA between the whole population.

 

[JohnnyRaz]

If collins sided with the Nazis do you think they would done stupid shit like barbarossa?
We'd be driving about in VW beetles with one helix of DNA between the whole population.

do you mean the Nazi's would have invaded Russia, or that there would have been a Waffen SS ''celtic mist'' regiment which would have been singing rebel songs in stalingrad?

I think once france fell, russia was next one way or another... it was so central to the nazi ideology.

 

[ann post]

do you mean the Nazi's would have invaded Russia, or that there would have been a Waffen SS ''celtic mist'' regiment which would have been singing rebel songs in stalingrad?

I think once france fell, russia was next one way or another... it was so central to the nazi ideology.

Collins, grand president of ireland for life sides with nazis, eventually joining the party and deposing hitler in the early 1940s in a miltary coup, takes command of england and ceases ww2 having achieved his goals, soon after do die tragically in a shooting and de Valera becomes the queen.

 

[JohnnyRaz]

Collins, grand president of ireland for life sides with nazis, eventually joining the party and deposing hitler in the early 1940s in a miltary coup, takes command of england and ceases ww2 having achieved his goals, soon after do die tragically in a shooting and de Valera becomes the queen.

.... John Charles Mc Quaid becoming the Cardinal Richelieu of this new Devilarian regime...

 

[ann post]

.... John Charles Mc Quaid becoming the Cardinal Richelieu of this new Devilarian regime...

Also I hadn't though possibly about the civil war factor - you are right - I started thinking the border might be the shannon by about 1940 - the Unionist are obvioulsy going to protect themselves and their culture, the Dubs who were installed by the brits are going to sit on the fence until the unionists have enough UK backing and the hell or connaughts will go to hell or connaught.

 

[ann post]

If collins was let live at all the brits would be smart enough to realise he's auseful shitstirring machine and probably woulda been sent to ww1 in trench coat work on subterfuge side of stuff with a promise of post war amnesty, from which he would never return one way or another. I don't actually think he was a nazi.