Thinking of killing this kid on my street. (1 Viewer)

[billygannon]

i doubt it's objectivity. any more info on that case oh shit?

Here you go:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/803151.stm

 

[glen]

Yeah, but, Norway...

 

[spiritualtramp]

it's ironic that many of the same social attitudes and pressures that demand punishment over rehabilitation are often the very same pressures that drive people to crimes of 'madness' or economic crime in the first place.

So what social pressures exactly force the poor little criminals to dance on someones head?

there just doesn't seem to be a climate for a proper discussion of reforming the penal system (which is pretty much fucked in ireland and the UK), i think that promoting a better understanding of what human rights norms actually are might be a good place to start; but that's not going to come from the state.

What do you mean by promoting human rights norms?

Most violent criminals attitudes are down to their parents influence. Did you see about the family of David Morley getting abuse from the family of those convicted happy slappers? I'm pretty sure there is a link there.

No matter how much money is pumped into penal reform (and I agree there should be a lot more) at the end of the day you can't actually force people to bring their kids up properly with respect for other people. To do so would be state interference and you'd be the first person screaming about that.

 

[mazzyianne]

James Bolger's killers certainly did not have you average normal happy family upbringing. I think it's fucked that they could have been tried as adults and imprisonned. There has to be something wrong with a person to commit these kind of crimes, no matter what age they are.

That case in Norway might not be as similar is it is made look in that article, I mean, they may not have tortured the girl, or meant to kill her, she was left hurt in the snow and froze to death. But their attutude towards violent crime seems more constructive to me.

I can see why people want vengence, but I think that when you get an idea of the kind of life some children had lived, you see why they are fucked up. A friend of mine was murdered when I was younger, she was 17. They never found out who did it, so it's hard to say, but it's the only comparable thing I can relate to. Anyways, I reckon if her friends and family got a reason for why it happened, if there was open discussion of the case as there was in Norway, maybe the understanding and a focus on trying to ensure the person would never commit a crime like that again, it would be better than seeing them imprisoned and come out more estranged from society and more likely to commit crimes than when they went in.

hope that made some sense.

 

[oh shit]

So what social pressures exactly force the poor little criminals to dance on someones head?

exact social pressures - nice oxymoron. it doesn't really undermine my point one bit if i refuse to try and analyse an individual case based on media reporting, does it?

What do you mean by promoting human rights norms?

in terms of prisons, or generally? in general, discourse on rights doesn't seem to distinguish between actual written human rights which are intended to limit the powers of statutory bodies over individuals, and other concepts of 'rights' which are wheeled out to justify any political position that suits.

therefore if the actual human rights which are laid down in the ECHR and (theoretically) a part of Irish and UK law were more widely diseminated there may be a different outlook on debates around things like penality.

Most violent criminals attitudes are down to their parents influence. Did you see about the family of David Morley getting abuse from the family of those convicted happy slappers? I'm pretty sure there is a link there... No matter how much money is pumped into penal reform (and I agree there should be a lot more) at the end of the day you can't actually force people to bring their kids up properly with respect for other people.

seriously, how do you persist with the notion that 'a family' or individuals exist in some sort of isolated bubble, with no outside social or economic influence? it's absurd.

yes, studies in Cambridge, the USA and Canada have identified the ‘most hopeful’ strategies for intervening to prevent crime/anti-social behaviour as:

• • home visiting by health professionals to give advice on infant development, nutrition and alcohol and drug avoidance in order to reduce parental child abuse
  • pre-school ‘intellectual enrichment’ programmes in nurseries to stimulate thinking and reasoning skills in young people
  • parenting education programmes
  • cognitive and social skills training to teach children the consequences of their behaviour
  • teacher training and anti-bullying initiatives in schools

... these are the interventions that may be made in lives obviously at risk, but to then use that to blame parents for not preventing crime is illogical.

you've got it backwards. what you're describing is basically 'underclass' theory a la charles murray. the idea that there is a horde of lazy, irresponsible poor people happy to stay poor and be single mums and sponge off the state and that this breeds crime - it's bullshit. you're looking at symptoms and calling them causes.

To do so would be state interference and you'd be the first person screaming about that.

'state interference' isn't some sort of buzzword. if you think the processes that give power to the state aren't involved with every part of your life and mine, go read the foucault thread or something. the state influences everything, the questions are more about what type of 'interference' works, or indeed whether the state is the best means of working it.
personally i think the research shows community based forums work better.

and fyi, there is 'state interference' exactly of the type you describe in the UK. it's in the form of ASBOs, ABCs, and Parenting Orders, and it's all introduced under the rhetoric of 'respect'.
a parent can now be jailed for refusing to take part in a parenting programme if their child's school demands it, for example. don't worry cos the irish justice minister is a big fan, you'll probably get a lot of it in too.
then even you yourself can apply to have the yobs and wasters and general riff raff carted off to mountjoy without them ever actually breaking the law. sweet huh.

 

[Buzzo]

You must spread some props around before giving bernards brain a squillion quid and an Honorary Degree in Rapid again.

 

[c0De_n1NjA]

this should be in lifestyle

 

[shitepipe]

jeez, way to kill a thread oh shit

i mean, i was gonna offer some half arsed opinion on something or other with no basis in fact whatsoever, and then suddenly we have this guy giving it all this with his facts and substantiated opinions 'n shit. where's the fun in that?

i'm off to the chips! thread, i know a thing or two about chips...

 

[spiritualtramp]

in terms of prisons, or generally? in general, discourse on rights doesn't seem to distinguish between actual written human rights which are intended to limit the powers of statutory bodies over individuals, and other concepts of 'rights' which are wheeled out to justify any political position that suits.

therefore if the actual human rights which are laid down in the ECHR and (theoretically) a part of Irish and UK law were more widely diseminated there may be a different outlook on debates around things like penality.

Again, can you clarify what human rights specifically you are referring to here?

seriously, how do you persist with the notion that 'a family' or individuals exist in some sort of isolated bubble, with no outside social or economic influence? it's absurd.

What the fuck? I never said families live in a bubble away from any other influence, did I? I do happen to think that family are the main influence on someone but I know there are other influences.

you've got it backwards. what you're describing is basically 'underclass' theory a la charles murray. the idea that there is a horde of lazy, irresponsible poor people happy to stay poor and be single mums and sponge off the state and that this breeds crime - it's bullshit. you're looking at symptoms and calling them causes.

Much as you wish I did (so you can act all self-righteous) I never fucking mentioned anything like the underclass theory. I don't agree with that theory at all I don't think bringing up kids irresponsibly is limited to the "underclass".
I think it is deeply patronising to the vast majority of law-abiding poor people to blame violence and crime on poverty alone.

and fyi, there is 'state interference' exactly of the type you describe in the UK. it's in the form of ASBOs, ABCs, and Parenting Orders, and it's all introduced under the rhetoric of 'respect'.

So the alternative to this is what? Let out of control teenagers just run around the place? Chuck them all in Borstal?

a parent can now be jailed for refusing to take part in a parenting programme if their child's school demands it, for example.

Yes, as a last, last resort. A parent can be jailed for refusing access to the childs other parent. Rarely happens though.

don't worry cos the irish justice minister is a big fan, you'll probably get a lot of it in too.
then even you yourself can apply to have the yobs and wasters and general riff raff carted off to mountjoy without them ever actually breaking the law. sweet huh.

Given the overcrowding of prisons and the fact that people get released early as there is no room for them it is highly unlikely that someone breaking an ASBO is going to get jailed.
Why are you referring to these people as yobs and wasters? Dreadfully snobby of you, I must say.

 

[tartaruga]

Alright, you win

Phew.

 

[ICUH8N]

 

[ms.b.haven]

I love when spiritualtramp gets going all the same, it's kinda sexy

Phew.

 

[glen]

 

[billygannon]

Why is it wrong for a father or mother to kill someone who has deliberately killed their kid?

Need to edit my point here... someone who has murdered their kid - in that the murder was not politically motivated and the killer was not under duress from another party to carry out the killing.

 

[glen]

Need to edit some more.

 

[clive]

this is a bit of a political hot potato. here, catch.