the iRA and the Bank Robbery (3 Viewers)

[broken arm]

i can think of that alright. i just cant think how, in the current climate, it can be done. especially when so many people obviously mistrust and misunderstand the republican movement

look. to degree all movements are mistruted. do you trust the loyalists? what you need to do is understand what it is people mistrust and why. tackle the issues in concise and controlled manner. If you can begin to understand where people are coming from you may be able to approach their misgivings without telling them they can't think for themselves etc.

 

[Chocohead]

i would like to trust the loyalists. actually donaldson is regularly in dublin, which is something that wouldnt have happened a few years back.

I see where you're coming from, but when people dont look at the facts and blindly believe things i cant help but think they obviously have lost the knack of individual thought

 

[MDR]

I see where you're coming from, but when people dont look at the facts and blindly believe things i cant help but think they obviously have lost the knack of individual thought

The irony of that coming from you.

 

[Problematic]

my point being the "real IRA" didn't suddenly develop a new hardline approach and ideology that is in contravention to the popular fantasy of the IRA as protecters of the community (and I understand how that vision developed)

fair point, the hardline approach and ideology that dissidents now take is something that was born out of necessity in the 70s and 80s, when it came down to making the choice some felt they were selling out comrades who had given their lives along with having no confidence in any offers being made by Unionists, Britian or even the Dublin government, and were not willing to take a softer approach, many who did eventually take a chance on the GFA were extremly hardline but felt it needed to be given a chance. 10 years down the line, a lot of them are thinking, well we gave it a serious effort but nothing has changed.

You mention the "popular fantasy of the IRA as protectors of the community", I don`t really think that is true, the IRA had a dual purpose operationally, defensive and offensive. The defensive being the "protectors of the community", the offensive being the attacks on military personnel and trageted assasinations along with bombing campaigns in which innocent people were killed. As it currently stands only the defensive side is now in operation, the offensive has been put to bed.

The hardline has always been there, it is just that some refused to take a new approach.

 

[broken arm]

You mention the "popular fantasy of the IRA as protectors of the community", I don`t really think that is true, the IRA had a dual purpose operationally, defensive and offensive. The defensive being the "protectors of the community", the offensive being the attacks on military personnel and trageted assasinations along with bombing campaigns in which innocent people were killed. As it currently stands only the defensive side is now in operation, the offensive has been put to bed.

fantasy wasn't the correct term. I really mean a 'romanticised vision' of the role of the IRA. on a basic level you can get a sense of this from firstly talking to people but also from the content and delivery of political murals in nationalist areas in comparison to those in loyalist areas. The message of suffering and identification with international struggles such as in palestine feeds into that romaticised vision but there is a tremondous dissonance between the message and the action or reality. That behind this message of suffering is infliction of suffering, murder and crime*

It can be difficult for people to disconnect their vision from the reality. and it can be difficult for people to divide between the hardline and the softline of the IRA when they both gave rise to each other - that goes back the manner in which they organise and manage themselves

The hardline has always been there, it is just that some refused to take a new approach.

exactly.

*what's also interesting is the form of the loyalist message: more aggressive and almost feeding into a siege mentality. As a british colleague that lives in belfast for a number of years - They are 'more british that the british themselves'

 

[Chocohead]

The irony of that coming from you.

is it indeed. how so? what am I blindly believing in? that SF and the provos werent involved? so you have all the evidence to tell me Im wrong then or are you blindly believing they did it because you dont like them?

You'll never answer me anyway since at this stage all you seem to do is make the odd throwaway snide remark and then disappear for a while

 

[ITalkShite]

is it indeed. how so? what am I blindly beliing in? that SF and the provos werent involved? so you have allt he evidence to tell me Im wrong then or are you blindly believing they did it because you dont like them?

You'll never answer me anyway since at this stage all you seem to do is make the odd throwaway snide remark and then disappear for a while

Mr. Chocohead, if I might be so bold as to say...

Your tone and style are not doing you or your argument here any favours (in much the same way as Latex Lizzie is not doing the anti-Sinn-Fein argument much good with his schoolyard namecalling).

You say you're annoyed because people aren't debating 'properly': Problematic has offered a far more convincing defence and analysis of the IRA in a few posts than you have in the entire thread.

If you want a 'proper' debate, drop the aggrieved tone and engage with the points being made. When I said you were insulting our intelligence a few pages ago you ignored me. It was a fair point then and it's a fair point now.

 

[Chocohead]

deal. get that mumblin fella off my back and all will be grand.

Problematic has indeed been much more concise than I, and i take my hat off to him, if i were wearing one.

I apologise for ignoring you - I didnt mean to. I do realise i may have been insulting alright, but just read over the thread and have a look at the shit that was being thrown at me. I apologise if I over-reacted.

 

[Chocohead]

what points were being made that I missed? I believe I tried to answer anything that was asked of me.

 

[Problematic]

The message of suffering and identification with international struggles such as in palestine feeds into that romaticised vision but there is a tremondous dissonance between the message and the action or reality. That behind this message of suffering is infliction of suffering, murder and crime*

Yes I see what you mean, but all struggles and conflict, be they the six counties, Palestine or elsewhere work the same way, while there may be a romanticised vision, the reality is there that there is always infliction of suffereing by the victimised community on someone else once they start to fight back, if you fight fire with fire you in turn will cause suffering. But what other option was there ? Turn the other cheek, that was done for far too long and all it did was dig a deeper hole for the nationalist community.

 

[rothko]

punishment beatings happen due to an incompetant and untrusted police force

Jesus, you can actually rationalise and explain punishment beatings carried out by an unelected community controlling fascist organisation like the IRA.

Unbelievable.

There can NEVER be an understandable justification for punishment beatings be it Northern Ireland/Iraq/East Timor wherever! Incompetency and lack of trust in a Police Force are pathetic excuses.

.

 

[Problematic]

It can be difficult for people to disconnect their vision from the reality. and it can be difficult for people to divide between the hardline and the softline of the IRA when they both gave rise to each other - that goes back the manner in which they organise and manage themselves

I fully understand people finding it hard to make out the grey lines that seperate different groupings of republicanism, but I think it has more to do with a reluctance on the behalf of some folk to do any serious delving into the movement and also other folk who find it convienient politically to lump us all together as one organisation rather than the way in which republicans organise and manage themselves. When republican groups splinter or seperate they are over serious ideological issues, never over small matters. The split in Sinn Fein in 1986 was over Adams and McGuinness leadership bringing the party into taking electoral seats in the 26 counties, which was inconcionable for some republicans who along with O`Bradaigh left. There are no invisible lines here, people may wish to paint them as invisible but they are in fact difinitive lines and seperations.

The reality is there is a chasm of difference ideologically between the IRA and the Real IRA or the Continuity IRA etc, it serves people to cast them all as the same intermingled group but that is not the reality.

 

[broken arm]

But what other option was there ? Turn the other cheek, that was done for far too long and all it did was dig a deeper hole for the nationalist community.

don't want to stray of the point too much as I just wanted to lightly introduce some of the reasons for distrust of the IRA by lots of people.

but. we have many examples around the world of shifts from armed struggle to legitimate political representation and the process of legitimisation comes from the manner in which the 'struggling' group manages and presents itself. Also, the manner in which that struggle is being played out must be reflective of the political realities of the 'conflict'.

You must be able to read the catalogue of actions for what they are (and many in the IRA seem to have done this, hence the splits and factions etc) and the issues of criminality, bombings, punishment beatings etc "muddy the water" and you would have to be naive to see that all that was happening amounted to legitimate response to a threat.

 

[broken arm]

The reality is there is a chasm of difference ideologically between the IRA and the Real IRA or the Continuity IRA etc, it serves people to cast them all as the same intermingled group but that is not the reality.

Yes it serves some people politically - that is plain. But not everyone. Also many people simple didn't 'like' the IRA before the splitting up and the only way they will 'like' them in the future is if they dissolve leaving legitimate representatives of the community.

 

[Problematic]

You must be able to read the catalogue of actions for what they are (and many in the IRA seem to have done this, hence the splits and factions etc) and the issues of criminality, bombings, punishment beatings etc "muddy the water" and you would have to be naive to see that all that was happening amounted to legitimate response to a threat.

Yes I agree with you, but the bombing have stopped and the punishment beatings will soon be a thing of the past too, I don`t accept the republican movement is involved in criminality of any kind but I do accept some people who claim the republican name are involved in criminality. Once the policing issue is sorted in an agreeable manner, a manner in which nationalists can be secure in the knowledge it is a legitimate force that can be trusted, all issues that now muddy the waters will be a thing of the past, and if they are not, people will be dealt with by the police. Once Sinn Fein agree to take seats on the policing board, they can not at the same time tell people not to trust the police so the area of operations for punishment beatings etc disappears.

I do also see your point about reasons for some people not trusting the IRA, but in time hopefully that will be irrelevant as the IRA will be stuff of history books.

 

[Unicron]

and *shock horror*, are possibly members of the IRA.

Actually, in terms of that whole plausible deniability thing I wouldn't be surprised if active members of the IRA were encouraged to not be members of SF, that way if they are arrested the party could easily say "they were not a member of the party."

Not saying it happens but thats what I would do if I was trying to demonstrate the veneer of seperation between the two.

 

[broken arm]

Actually, in terms of that whole plausible deniability thing I

I don`t accept the republican movement is involved in criminality of any kind but I do accept some people who claim the republican name are involved in criminality.

I appreciate that but you realise this is a difficulty for saome and it can be very hard to quantify. Who claims legitimacy, who carries the mandate etc.

Once the policing issue is sorted in an agreeable manner, a manner in which nationalists can be secure in the knowledge it is a legitimate force that can be trusted, all issues that now muddy the waters will be a thing of the past, and if they are not, people will be dealt with by the police.

one of the pics from my last trip to belfast.

I do also see your point about reasons for some people not trusting the IRA, but in time hopefully that will be irrelevant as the IRA will be stuff of history books.

hopefully.


sorry for the short replies but I have to catch a bus

 

[rothko]

Once Sinn Fein agree to take seats on the policing board, they can not at the same time tell people not to trust the police so the area of operations for punishment beatings etc disappears.

QUOTE]

!!!

Please explain how punishment beatings naturally fill the vacuum left in absence of a trusted police force. Even though I completly disagree with the concept of unelected community members policing themselves I fail to see how beatings and forced exile requests are acceptable responses to crime in a community.

.

 

[Unicron]

Clearly you don`t approve, but at the time it was a necessarry political reaction to the situation in the six counties. Terrible things happened and were perpetrated by both sides but it needs to be kept in context. To dismiss the IRA as terrorists is your opinion, many others don`t share that opinion.

Well, thats quite possibly the most disgusting thing that I've ever read on thumped, congratulations.

Innocent men, woman and children being blown to pieces is necessary??? And yes, Loyalists going into pubs and shooting up the plavce was just as bad.

Wasn't SF very vocal about the actions of the US in Iraq and the Americans killing innocent people with bombs?

 

[Problematic]

Please explain how punishment beatings naturally fill the vacuum left in absence of a trusted police force. Even though I completly disagree with the concept of unelected community members policing themselves I fail to see how beatings and forced exile requests are acceptable responses to crime in a community.

.

Well if you completly disagree with the concept of unelected community policing, I`ll be wasting my time trying to explain anything about the vacuum left in the absence of a trusted police force, so I won`t bother, thanks.

You may not see this issue as an acceptable response to crime in a community, take six months off work and spend it doing community work in an area where this is a day to day reality, and speak to that community about how they can vote virtually in totality for Sinn Fein when these kinds of community justice are being dished out, seeing as Sinn Fein are apparently inoxtricably linked to the people dishing out this justice.

It`s all well and good, sitting at your computer being morally aghast and outraged at what these savages do to each other, but take a walk in the real world a have a good look around.