the iRA and the Bank Robbery (2 Viewers)

[Problematic]

Well, thats quite possibly the most disgusting thing that I've ever read on thumped, congratulations.

I can live with it Unicon, I`m a big boy.

Why is it disgusting, people have given and sacrificed a lot in the last thirty years, you throwing your hands in the air and going shocking, absolutely shocking, adds zero to the discussion, apart from a little unwarranted self gratification for yourself. You have nothing constructive to offer, but feel left out, so use the time honoured tradition of just tossing a little of nothing out there.

Good on ya.

 

[Unicron]

Look back a few pages and I think you'll find that I've added constructively to this thread.

People who were blown up did not give anything, they did not sacrifice anything, they were just murdered by fucking scumbags and for you to just dismiss their deaths with a broad "well it had to be done" type statement is fucking repugnent so if you think I add nothing by what I said fair enough.

But there is no way in hell that I'm going to let you say that without calling you on it then you're dead wrong and as far as I'm concerned it's got nothing to do with self gratification it's do you with you making cuntish statements.

 

[ITalkShite]

Unicron, you talk easy, sanctimonious crap.

Edited to add:

It doesn't help anyone, or add anything, to just shout 'Bad people are bad!'

Condemn the IRA if you want (and I do), but nothing like this exists in a vacuum.

 

[Problematic]

Look back a few pages and I think you'll find that I've added constructively to this thread.

People who were blown up did not give anything, they did not sacrifice anything, they were just murdered by fucking scumbags and for you to just dismiss their deaths with a broad "well it had to be done" type statement is fucking repugnent so if you think I add nothing by what I said fair enough.

But there is no way in hell that I'm going to let you say that without calling you on it then you're dead wrong and as far as I'm concerned it's got nothing to do with self gratification it's do you with you making cuntish statements.

I assume what has you all aflutter is my "it was a necessarry political reaction to the situation in the six counties". You are perfectly entitled to call me whatever you wish, but the fact remains the political situation in the six counties would still be at the stage it was in the early 70s without the bombing campaigns in the UK and Europe. Yes of course it is a fucked up and terrible part of our history that innocent men, women and children died, but to get all up on your high horse changes nothing. The fact is republicans felt this was a necessarry response to what was happening here, you don`t like that, fine, cool, but it doesn`t change anything.

When I said people over the last 30 years had "given and sacrificed" I was including all innocent victims in there, in that they their lives were lost, many people innocent and not so innocent have suffered but the fact remains they did suffer and until people like you can accept that this is our past, warts and all, we will never move forward. The only way to stop this happening again is to make changes within our society to prevent the things that brough it about in the first place. You accusing me of making a cuntish statement achieves nothing, I`ve been polite to everyone I`ve discussed this on here with. If you disagree with something I said, it is easy to express that displeasure without the hysterics.

 

[Unicron]

Yeah, I was really pissed off and I shouldn't have used the "cuntish statement" thing, for that I aplogoise, but you certainly weren't polite to me on the top post on this page and maybe you were reacting to me saying you made a a disgusting statement and I was responding to ... and so it goes on and on.

I realise that getting on my horse changes nothing and I have accepted that it's part of our past but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with it being done, you obviously do. But for the record, the the victims of the bombings didn't give anything, they had it taken from them.

And Italkshite, I meant it more as a "bad people are bad, and you saying that they were good was wrong" thing, I realise that nothing exists in a vacuum (except, well all the planets and stars and stuff) but are you saying that whatever happened to Catholics in the North (and it was awful) justified the bombings?

 

[Problematic]

But for the record, the the victims of the bombings didn't give anything, they had it taken from them.

yes but where do you stop ? all the innocent men who were rounded up and beaten and interned and spent years in prison with out trail didn`t give anything, they had it taken from them. Innocent catholic taxi drivers who were killed by loyalist death squads didn`t give anything they had it taken from them. Innocent people on all sides were killed and maimed, they were all victims whether they sacrificed anything willingly or had it taken from them.

 

[Chocohead]

i dont think any of us can explain or justify what has happened in the north. its a bot like WW2 - lots of people dies in it, but it had to happen. doesnt mean those involved actively looked forward to it happening or anything

 

[Chocohead]

i also dont think we can solve the problems by simply shouting at sinn fein to disband the IRA. I feel there will be another split in both the IRA and Sinn Fein.

 

[ITalkShite]

are you saying that whatever happened to Catholics in the North (and it was awful) justified the bombings?

No. And I think I've made that pretty plain in my other posts on this thread.

No bombing can be morally justified. They can be understood in their context, though. In fact it's impossible to understand them outside of their context.

So, some context: people forget that there were refugee camps of Northern Catholics in the Republic in the 1960s. That was the kind of situation that gave rise to the IRA.

Or consider it another way; the French Resistance killed a lot of innocent people during World War II. Were they justified?

I'm not trying to compare the IRA to the French Resistance, or anything else, I'm just trying to emphasise the importance of the context, and the fact that moralistic, sanctimonious shouting only serves to prevent understanding the problem.

Having said that, I think elements of the IRA carried out the Northern Bank raid for their own political purposes, and most Irish politicians are making hay while the sun shines by shouting about Sinn Fein. But that's just me.

 

[Unicron]

yes but where do you stop ? all the innocent men who were rounded up and beaten and interned and spent years in prison with out trail didn`t give anything, they had it taken from them. Innocent catholic taxi drivers who were killed by loyalist death squads didn`t give anything they had it taken from them. Innocent people on all sides were killed and maimed, they were all victims whether they sacrificed anything willingly or had it taken from them.

True, and I did say that what the loyalists did was just as bad.

My biggest problem with the IRA campaign is the bombings, I'll concede that they had legitimate beefs and that attacks made on the RUC and the Army "could" be classed as ones against "legitimate military targets" so why couldn't they have just had a shooting campaign? I know that it terms or scare tactics it wouldn't be as effective but I continue to maintain that mass murder (be it bomb or walking into a pub and opening fire) is never justified.

It's probably true that what the paras did on Bloody Sunday did more to help IRA recruitment than anything the republican movement could have ever done but the same could easily be said of any one of the bombings and it helping boost the membership of the loyalist paramilitarys.

 

[Problematic]

My biggest problem with the IRA campaign is the bombings, I'll concede that they had legitimate beefs and that attacks made on the RUC and the Army "could" be classed as ones against "legitimate military targets" so why couldn't they have just had a shooting campaign? I know that it terms or scare tactics it wouldn't be as effective but I continue to maintain that mass murder (be it bomb or walking into a pub and opening fire) is never justified.
.

basically because the Brits didn`t give a shit when we were killing each other and some soldiers in the six counties, they only looked at the problems with any kind of seriousness once the bombs started happening in England. Look at the current peace process, in 1994 when the IRA ceasefire came into operation, the Brits hummed and hawed and did nothing they had agreed to. Huge bomb in the docklands announces the end of the ceasefire in 1995, they were pretty fucking sharpish to get back to talking. This may not be pretty or nice but the fact is that it works a lot better to blow the fuck out of a huge commercial premises than it does to kill a few soldiers.

 

[Chocohead]

Having said that, I think elements of the IRA carried out the Northern Bank raid for their own political purposes, and most Irish politicians are making hay while the sun shines by shouting about Sinn Fein. But that's just me.

it wouldnt surprise me if republican elements were involved. I'd said it aeady in this thread, but if it is proven that both the PIRA and Sinn Fein were lying then they will no longer have any kind of sympathy or support from me.

in saying that, its very very rare for the PIRA to lie in an official statement and to be honest, i dont think i can remember Sinn Fein blatently lying, especially in reference to the peace process which makes me believe neither the provos or SF had anything to do with it.. but i fully understand i could be wrong

 

[Unicron]

No bombing can be morally justified. They can be understood in their context, though. In fact it's impossible to understand them outside of their context.

So, some context: people forget that there were refugee camps of Northern Catholics in the Republic in the 1960s. That was the kind of situation that gave rise to the IRA.

I'm aware of the context that gave rise to the reemergance of the IRA but like you said, there is no moral justification for bombings.

I'm not trying to compare the IRA to the French Resistance, or anything else, I'm just trying to emphasise the importance of the context, and the fact that moralistic, sanctimonious shouting only serves to prevent understanding the problem.

I wasn't shouting, I was mute as I typed.

 

[Cormcolash]

Damn I missed all the fun arguing and now I can't be arsed reading it all. Shit.

 

[Latex lizzie]

Mr. Chocohead, if I might be so bold as to say...

Your tone and style are not doing you or your argument here any favours (in much the same way as Latex Lizzie is not doing the anti-Sinn-Fein argument much good with his schoolyard namecalling).

You say you're annoyed because people aren't debating 'properly': Problematic has offered a far more convincing defence and analysis of the IRA in a few posts than you have in the entire thread.

If you want a 'proper' debate, drop the aggrieved tone and engage with the points being made. When I said you were insulting our intelligence a few pages ago you ignored me. It was a fair point then and it's a fair point now.

I've done more than that. Go back and read my posts.

 

[rothko]

i also dont think we can solve the problems by simply shouting at sinn fein to disband the IRA. I feel there will be another split in both the IRA and Sinn Fein.

Phew!

It's ok everyone, Chocohead has a handle on the whole situation.

.

 

[Chocohead]

Phew!

It's ok everyone, Chocohead has a handle on the whole situation.

.

wow - you are just so funny. really. that was hilarious. gawd help me, get an ambulance as my sides are splitting.

 

[Cormcolash]

This argument is settled once and for all:

http://www.googlefight.com/index.ph...ank&word2=The+Ra+didn't+rob+the+Northern+Bank

 

[Chocohead]

a choice idea sir.

 

[broken arm]

This argument is settled once and for all:

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=The+Ra+robbed+the+Northen+Bank&word2=The+Ra+didn%27t+rob+the+Northern+Bank

well that's that then