Queen Kong / Ladyfest Berlin Hassle (1 Viewer)

[Wilbert]

i mean it simply in terms of ratio of those involved. i am not suggesting that it is a sexist world. maybe i should have said "sausage-fest"

Maybe a "sad, lonely sausage-fest"?

 

[Carlow Punks!]

I think anybody moans about feminist promoters who want to organise women-only, or women-forefronted gig even though they espouse equality is exceptionally myopic, and doesn't understand the basic ideas of strategising in relation to goals and aims.

I'm going to be very condescending here for a sentence or three so bare with me - an aim being a long term generalised ideal with a goal being a more short term..er..goal which might look unrelated to the aim but gets you a tiny bit more along the road to it.
In other words the aim being a culture where things like Magical Girl don't need to exist, but paradoxically (or so it seems to be for some people), they must exist to accomplish some more immediate goals (more public exposure or women bands, leading perhaps to greater confidence and more female musicians, and then a more dynamic music culture involving women musicians, etc etc etc, you know the score..actually I feel a little silly saying all this but a few people just don't seem to get it!)

In a manner I see Magical Girl and Ladyfest as working towards its own demise through successful obsolescence, even if it seems like their propagating a culture of separation and a sexual revolution of genetic Super-Women who will castrate all us men and send us all off to work in massive underground mines.

then again...
!ninjaaaa

 

[shelxy]

Again, when challenged these "feminists" resort to name calling.

Sexual Violence and Domestic Violence are not exclusive to women, are they?

Believe it or not men are raped and beaten as well, every fucking day.

duh...thats one of the reasons why we chose those charities...

 

[Wilbert]

it seems like their propagating a culture of separation and a sexual revolution of genetic Super-Women who will castrate all us men and send us all off to work in massive underground mines.

then again...
!ninjaaaa

I, for one, welcome these castrating Uberladies!

 

[Squiggle]

Oh, and I should have pointed out that the reasons that women more women don't attempt to climb the corporate ladder are probably also applicable in the music industry - where the sacrifices would be similar, if not greater, at least if fame and fortune were the goal.

 

[jane]

Now I'm confused. This person who you were making 40% less than was a man or a woman?

Oh, sorry! I meant that the person responsible for paying me was a woman. And I was actually there for longer than the dude. He just had a better idea of his rights, and then one day we talked about what we were being paid, and he encouraged me to ring them and point out that someone with my qualifications should automatically be paid the higher rate. So I did, but I'll tell you what, I was scared shiteless of doing it, and I'm not sure I would have bothered if he hadn't been so encouraging.

I think my point is that most of us who live in reality are very aware that gender-based biases are not simple men v women. In this case, it was easier to get away with paying me less, and a woman was responsible for it. And a man was the one who kicked me up the arse. And in the end, I fought for it myself, but the confidence to do so came from having a colleague who truly believed me to be equal.

I would never be able to prove that the pay difference was because of my gender, but the connection between certain individuals telling me I wasn't worth investing in because women my age run off and get married, blah blah blah, being bullied into waitressing at an academic seminar, told I look like I'd fit in better in a typing pool, and all this stuff -- it's difficult to see all of these gendered events as total coincidences that still don't prove the existence of gender bias.

 

[Wilbert]

Oh, and I should have pointed out that the reasons that women more women don't attempt to climb the corporate ladder are probably also applicable in the music industry - where the sacrifices would be similar, if not greater, at least if fame and fortune were the goal.

Luckily none of us here, male or female, will ever have to face that!

 

[Wilbert]

Oh, sorry! I meant that the person responsible for paying me was a woman. And I was actually there for longer than the dude. He just had a better idea of his rights, and then one day we talked about what we were being paid, and he encouraged me to ring them and point out that someone with my qualifications should automatically be paid the higher rate. So I did, but I'll tell you what, I was scared shiteless of doing it, and I'm not sure I would have bothered if he hadn't been so encouraging.

I think my point is that most of us who live in reality are very aware that gender-based biases are not simple men v women. In this case, it was easier to get away with paying me less, and a woman was responsible for it. And a man was the one who kicked me up the arse. And in the end, I fought for it myself, but the confidence to do so came from having a colleague who truly believed me to be equal.

I would never be able to prove that the pay difference was because of my gender, but the connection between certain individuals telling me I wasn't worth investing in because women my age run off and get married, blah blah blah and all this stuff -- it's difficult to see all of these gendered events as total coincidences that still don't prove the existence of gender bias.

What was their official reason for paying two different wages to two people doing the same job with the same qualifications?

 

[Squiggle]

Luckily none of us here, male or female, will ever have to face that!

Well, even without the fame and fortune it's all a lot of hard work, long hours, travelling etc.

 

[jane]

What was their official reason for paying two different wages to two people doing the same job with the same qualifications?

They didn't give me one. I just called them and told them that I should be on the higher rate and they tried to talk their way out of it. I didn't even bring up the gender issue because I knew it was not possible to prove and I'd probably have to take it to a tribunal or something. Going the, "You are not paying me what policy says you should" route was simpler and quicker.

While in theory it shouldn't be necessary to prove such a thing, in reality I know that all of the stupid shite that went on would not be taken by official folks as support for my argument, so I just did what was necessary to make sure I got my pay. But it's very hard to ignore the connection. Some of the things that I can't mention on the internet but that were said behind closed doors would make you absolutely shit yourself.

By the way, there was also always a sense that I felt I'd made it up. I was worried I'd made it all up, but the thing is, I've worked in loads of other capacities since then, and it's just served to validate the fact that I didn't make it up. In many other work scenarios, I've felt valued, trusted, and appreciated, and was made to feel like I was capable and was treated with respect.

 

[Carlow Punks!]

Do you not notice the word supposedly?

As far as gig level. I have been making music in a vareity of bands since 1996. I have never noticed any sort of sexism at any kind of gig, other than the bullshit feminism of Bratmobile. et. al.

Women have always been appreciated and enjoyed the same status as men in music. The idea of an imbalance is imaginary at best and sexist towards men at worst.

I did but I had to leave you a tiny opening to waste more time responding to me (the Aims and Goals an' all that) and I'm enjoying trolling you your such a joke, I couldn't be bothered to have a serious debate.

As an aside, I've been going to gigs / putting them on / playing in a band since about 1996 too and I've seen instances of sexism, not always very blatant or offensive mind - so that that mean the scene is rampant with sexism I guess..since your isolated example of having seen no sexism is enough for a blanket declaration that there is none anywhere! Class reasoning. Just class:

"I have a rock. I keeps away bears. Do you want to buy it? What..how can you trust me it works? You don't see any bears do you?!"

Can anyone, whose being going to gigs in the late nineties remind me of the women band (English/ punk?) that played in Dublin and Deko and some of the other mohawk punks showed up drunk and were chanting "show us you tits!"??

your the best fun since Janer, I just can't believe other people are rising to your bait..

 

[JohnnyRaz]

i mean it simply in terms of ratio of those involved. i am not suggesting that it is a sexist world. maybe i should have said "sausage-fest"

i often like to employ the term 'birds to beards ratio'

 

[Unicron]

aye, it's just that simple fact that it is - as you agree - male-dominated. certainly i would like to see that change, and i do of course hope that women can find it to be welcoming and inclusive.

Surely it's a case of it being male dominated because there's more men doing it and it's down to those demographics or can you point to specific instances where a woman's gender has held her back from getting a gig/sound engineering job or whatever?

Edit: Never mind you've already explained yourself earlier when addressing Wilbert.

 

[jane]

Well, even without the fame and fortune it's all a lot of hard work, long hours, travelling etc.

It's funny. Every single member of my family, when faced with the choice between career and family, has chosen career. And the thing is, when you look at successful people and see that maybe they sacrified loved ones at the corporate altar, what you don't see are those who sacrificed family concerns and still didn't reach the top.

 

[jane]

i often like to employ the term 'birds to beards ratio'

Yes, that's a good one, but I like 'sausages to rashers'.

 

[Pantone247]

what you don't see are those who sacrificed family concerns and still didn't reach the top.

thanks Jane, there's a lot of us out there...

 

[pelviscostello]

I did but I had to leave you a tiny opening to waste more time responding to me (the Aims and Goals an' all that) and I'm enjoying trolling you your such a joke, I couldn't be bothered to have a serious debate.

As an aside, I've been going to gigs / putting them on / playing in a band since about 1996 too and I've seen instances of sexism, not always very blatant or offensive mind - so that that mean the scene is rampant with sexism I guess..since your isolated example of having seen no sexism is enough for a blanket declaration that there is none anywhere! Class reasoning. Just class:

"I have a rock. I keeps away bears. Do you want to buy it? What..how can you trust me it works? You don't see any bears do you?!"

Can anyone, whose being going to gigs in the late nineties remind me of the women band (English/ punk?) that played in Dublin and Deko and some of the other mohawk punks showed up drunk and were chanting "show us you tits!"??

your the best fun since Janer, I just can't believe other people are rising to your bait..

I don't see how some ignorant punks shouting "show us your tits" is a general indictment that Rock 'N Roll is male dominated.

People say stupid things all the time (your posts are a perfect example of this)

Feminism is an outmoded concept that will earn it's place among other useless ideologies.

Oh, and I like how you are inferring that I am troll just because I disagree with you.

I view pro women events like I view pro white rallies. They too believe there is an imbalance in society that warrants their cause.

 

[jane]

thanks Jane, there's a lot of us out there...

Don't worry, when we set up our publishing conglomerate we'll make sure our workplace is family friendly. We'll even have a kids' mag called "Li'l Shit". We'll also have to employ a team of nine-year olds to write the jokes pages.

 

[Squiggle]

And the thing is, when you look at successful people and see that maybe they sacrified loved ones at the corporate altar, what you don't see are those who sacrificed family concerns and still didn't reach the top.

Yes, I've seen cases of that too, but that is also not just the fate of women. I've seen men struggle.

I must confess that I've contributed myself to the 'not enough women in management' crisis and held back the progress of equal representation.

In my last job I was offered a promotion to a management position (from an Admin/PA role). This promotion would have put me on a par with the guys who's work, my boss had realised, I was doing the majority of anyway. Although I would have loved the money, and the title the disruption to what I then thought of as my "personal life" would have been too high a price for me to pay. I don't regret that decision.

 

[jane]

I don't see how some ignorant punks shouting "show us your tits" is a general indictment that Rock 'N Roll is male dominated.

People say stupid things all the time (your posts are a perfect example of this)

Feminism is an outmoded concept that will earn it's place among other useless ideologies.

Oh, and I like how you are inferring that I am troll just because I disagree with you.

I view pro women events like I view pro white rallies. They too believe there is an imbalance in society that warrants their cause.

A troll is someone who sets up an account just to post abusive rubbish, and that's just what you've done.

You haven't responded to my question about immigrants.

How are women-centred events like pro-white rallies? I don't get it? Was there a bar in place that white people were legally barred from working because of their race? When was that? Do tell.

You also haven't -- as predicted -- responded to any of the discussions about how nuanced sexism is. I already made a comment about how a male-centred space for dealing with issues specifically related to masculinity in modern society would be a really, really positive step. I'd be all for it. But the equivalent of Ladyfest is not a creepy parade asserting superiority. That's what you're suggesting. Just as people who do things like study 'whiteness' are not trying to prove the superiority of white people -- they're problematising whiteness as a race, so that it can be looked at alongside other racial identities rather than being considered the default race.

You just want Ladyfest to be about women thinking we're superior because you're too busy to organise this white power rally you keep going on about.