Palestine (3 Viewers)

[Unclealo]

Strange Guy, I don't support Hamas and I don't know anyone in Ireland who does. Do you think what Israel is doing right now is a measured response to a serious threat?

 

[Froog]

The fact that Hamas are murdering bastards should not be allowed cloud the fact that they represent legitimate political aspirations. They wouldn't have been elected otherwise (I hope).

are you shitting me? hamas goal is the "total obliteration of the state of israel", that's fact, you'll read it anywhere. they also firmly believe in an anti semetic conspiracy to take over the world, namely this document, which is obviously the world's shittest forgery: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

here's some choice words straight from hamas's founding charter:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (the Cedar tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslem).

i totally empathise with the palestinians and condemn israel's extreme over reaction, but hamas are fucking dangerous bastards.




edit: did i misunderstand you?

 

[Cryptid]

I don't think because they have killed and maimed less people
than the IDF matters - any group with murder as their central
philosophy are evil...

So killing one person is as bad a crime as killing twenty people? I don't think the courts would view that as being the case. Or anyone else.

Also, no one here is "excusing" Hamas from killing people. You keep saying this and it's ridiculous.

Hamas and Palenstine are not the same thing.

 

[hugh]

edit: did i misunderstand you?

In one sense yes, but in another sense no. I'll try and explain myself a bit better ... but have to run and do something right now .... later.

 

[the strange guy]

Strange Guy, I don't support Hamas and I don't know anyone in Ireland who does. Do you think what Israel is doing right now is a measured response to a serious threat?

Nowhere did I say that Israel is even remotely in the right.

So killing one person is as bad a crime as killing twenty people? I don't think the courts would view that as being the case. Or anyone else.

Also, no one here is "excusing" Hamas from killing people. You keep saying this and it's ridiculous.

I don't understand your point. On one hand you seem to be
arguing that Hamas' crimes are lesser ones than those
committed by Israel because they have killed less people and
on the other hand you're saying that nobody is excusing
Hamas. Scale doesn't matter - Hamas are a group of murderers.

I'm not saying that people here -support- Hamas, but people
here and people I have met have come to the conclusion that
Hamas are somehow 'less bad' than Israel; indiscriminate
rocket attacks on civilians should never be responded to or
that rockets and suicide bombs on non-military targets are
the only means available to the Palestinians to fight back.
I would view that as excusing Hamas.

 

[Cryptid]

Simple point of fact: one murder is a lesser crime than 20 murders. Scale does matter, sorry.

In any case, I don't think you'll have to worry about Hamas for too much longer. Mind you, what comes after them is going to be a lot worse.

 

[the strange guy]

Simple point of fact: one murder is a lesser crime than 20 murders. Scale does matter, sorry.

We're not talking about one or twenty murders.
We're talking about indiscriminate rocket attacks and
suicide bombs on regular people.
It is the intent, the desire and the capability which should
count in your opinion of them as a group and not their
score.
This war is asymmetric and it is unconventional.
But neither side can be excused and neither side is justified.
If all you see is how 'few' people Hamas have killed and
how many the IDF have killed then you're not looking at
the bigger picture.
Were the UVF, UFF and RUC more deserving of pity
because they did not come close to killing the amount of
people that the IRA did? Of course not.

 

[Cryptid]

Did I say 1-20? Sorry, I of course meant 1-50. It'll soon be 1-100. And you think we're excusing Hamas by stating this? How high will the ratio have to be before you admit that Israel is the agressor and is more culpable in this situation than the Palestinians (not Hamas)?

 

[Tinpot Anto]

Hamas are nut jobs whose aims are not really supported by very many Palestinians. Their actions, as in perpetrating an armed resistance against an occupying force are completely supported by the vast majority of Palestinians, certainly in Gaza. There's a difference there.

If Israel wants to actually stop rockets being fired into their territory they have to give Palestinians some sort of realistic option of a normal life, of being able to take their kids to school and run a business etc, instead they are offered a sort of half existence on UN scraps of aid in a crumbling open prison.

Hamas are the public face of violent resistance against the occupation, they are not the instigators or inventors of it. If Israel think that they can destroy Hamas and the Gazans will almost thank them for it, then they are fools. If they want to root out all those who want to inflict violence on Israel in Gaza they are going to have an awful lot of killing ahead of them.

They need to take steps to stop Palestinians hating Israeli's enough to want to kill them. They don't seem to acknowledge that their actions in the past and right now are the cause of this widespread hatred, which is normally reserved for the nutjobs.

 

[hugh]

are you shitting me? hamas goal is the "total obliteration of the state of israel", that's fact, you'll read it anywhere. they also firmly believe in an anti semetic conspiracy to take over the world, namely this document, which is obviously the world's shittest forgery: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

here's some choice words straight from hamas's founding charter:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (the Cedar tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslem).

i totally empathise with the palestinians and condemn israel's extreme over reaction, but hamas are fucking dangerous bastards.

edit: did i misunderstand you?

Anyway, as I said, maybe a little bit. Though I did not explain myself very well ....

I said that they represent legitimate political aspirations - I don't mean that all of their own aspirations, thoughts, sayings or beliefs are necessarily legitimate. Hamas seem to be the only serious and influential Palestinian political organisation left who take the position that the state of Israel is illegitimate and that it's founding was illegal, incorrect and unjust. They are also the only serious organisation left who are prepared to militarily resist the IDF.

You have this quote about how their goal is the "total obliteration of the state of israel". Who are you quoting here exactly? Let's just take it at face value anyway though. Is that really so outlandish? People talk a lot about this group or that group wanting to destroy or obliterate Israel and use this to demonise them (e.g. Iran). Wanting an end to the state of Israel because it's founding was unjust and robbed Palestinians of their land is not unreasonable, even though it may be totally unrealistic. It does not necessarily mean that this entails killing all Israelis (though I accept that in the case of Hamas there is good reason to assume that it might). It might mean the establishment of a properly democratic state, home to both Jews and Palestinian Arabs that encompasses present day Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital. Again, I doubt this exactly corresponds to Hamas's vision, and I know this will never happen, but this should be the starting negotiating position of the Palestinians. Hamas are the only ones who come close to clinging to that, and that is what I mean by saying that they represent legitimate aspirations.

The reality is that (I'm speculating here) Hamas would probably agree to a two-state solution if it was based on the 1967 borders. Actually, I seem to recall that they may have actually stated this ..... could be wrong there though ..

I wouldn't have much truck with what is said in some ancient forged document that they supposedly endorse either. I would place more emphasis on what they actually do (which in recent times incidently was agreeing to, and largely holding, a six month ceasefire with Israel)

 

[Cryptid]

We're not talking about one or twenty murders.
We're talking about indiscriminate rocket attacks and
suicide bombs on regular people.
It is the intent, the desire and the capability which should
count in your opinion of them as a group and not their
score.

Murder is murder whatever the means or motivation. Sticking the badge of "state backed army" onto your tank doesn't make it any less of a murder either.

Some of them might have intent and desire, but they're way less capable than the Isreali state, although they have the same amount of intent and desire.

 

[the strange guy]

Did I say 1-20? Sorry, I of course meant 1-50. It'll soon be 1-100. And you think we're excusing Hamas by stating this? How high will the ratio have to be before you admit that Israel is the agressor and is more culpable in this situation than the Palestinians (not Hamas)?

Israel is stronger than Hamas.
The IDF is the current aggressor but is not more aggressive.
Both Hamas and the IDF are equally aggressive.
The IDF is more culpable in this situation as they are
hitting very hard at this very moment.
Hamas was more culpable when they were attacking
Israeli civilians.
If Hamas had the same military capacity as the IDF they
would use it.
You are switching between Hamas and the Palestinians
when it suits your argument.
The Palestinians don't have a murder ratio of 1-50, Hamas
and Fatah do.
This situation is delicate, complicated and painful.
I'm not going to change your mind, you're not going to
change mine.
I'm not even sure what it is you want me to say.
'I'm sorry, Israel is the only bad guy in this situation'?

Murder is murder whatever the means or motivation. Sticking the badge of "state backed army" onto your tank doesn't make it any less of a murder either.

Some of them might have intent and desire, but they're way less capable than the Isreali state, although they have the same amount of intent and desire.

I'm confused now. It looks like we're arguing the same thing!
IMPOSSIBLE!

 

[Tinpot Anto]

The IRA's stated aims were a United Ireland free from British Rule. In the end the settled for a hell of a lot short of that.

 

[the strange guy]

They haven't gone away, you know.

 

[Tinpot Anto]

Point being that Hamas are also likely to settle for a hell of a lot less than the destruction of Israel eh?

 

[Milker]

The IRA's stated aims were a United Ireland free from British Rule. In the end the settled for a hell of a lot short of that.

..yeah and the Eagles swore they'd never tour again..its a dangerous game, Claim Stating.

 

[Cryptid]

Quote:
Originally Posted by the strange guy
We're not talking about one or twenty murders.
We're talking about indiscriminate rocket attacks and
suicide bombs on regular people.
It is the intent, the desire and the capability which should
count in your opinion of them as a group and not their
score.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalo Ballet
Murder is murder whatever the means or motivation. Sticking the badge of "state backed army" onto your tank doesn't make it any less of a murder either.

Some of them might have intent and desire, but they're way less capable than the Isreali state, although they have the same amount of intent and desire.

I'm confused now. It looks like we're arguing the same thing!
IMPOSSIBLE!

No we're not. You said that "indiscriminate rocket attacks and suicide bombs on regular people which should
count in your opinion of them as a group and not their
score." I said that it doesn't matter if it's premediated or indiscriminate, it's still murder.

You are switching between Hamas and the Palestinians
when it suits your argument.

I don't think so. I think I've been clear and consistent throughout. I have always said that Hamas and Palestinians shouldn't be equated to being the same thing and that the crimes of Hamas shouldn't be justification for the destruction of the Palestinian people, their culture and their way of life.

This situation is delicate, complicated and painful.
I'm not going to change your mind, you're not going to
change mine.
I'm not even sure what it is you want me to say.
'I'm sorry, Israel is the only bad guy in this situation'?

True. It's just that back on planet Earth, one side is getting hammered and the other is doing pretty much ok. Ok, they don't have the security of Europeans or Americans, Australians etc, but they're not situated in either Europe or America or wherever, and the sooner they accept that fact and start integrating meaningfully into their region the better.

 

[the strange guy]

The votes are in!

Is Israel right to destroy Hamas?
46% Yes
54% No

http://www.irishtimes.com/polls/index.cfm?fuseaction=yesnopoll&pollid=8672

 

[Cryptid]

Very close. Usually their polls are outright yes or no.

Nicely phrased question, isn't it?

 

[Unicron]

and the sooner they accept that fact and start integrating meaningfully into their region the better.

You really think Iran, Syria etc would be happy to coexist peacefully with Israel?