Palestine (2 Viewers)

[the strange guy]

Ok, sorry.
Janer reckons that Hamas are the good guys compared to the Israeli government.

What's Palestine? They represent it, so what is it? The Kadima and Fianna Fail represent their countries when they're elected into its government.

I don't understand what you're trying to say.
The PNA governs Gaza and the West Bank.
Hamas governs the PNA which logically makes it the elected
representatives of the Palestinian territories.
I don't see how explaining 'What Palestine is' makes sense.
You were saying that Hamas don't represent a state, but they do.
You could argue that two divided territories don't constitute a
state, but for all intents and purposes it roughly describes the
situation.
What is your argument? That Palestine doesn't exist?

Israel does not want to deal with Hamas and it does not want peace.

Israel doesn't want peace?
That is total bollocks.
Ask any Israeli what they want and they'll tell you they want to live
their lives without threat of being blown up, same as the Palestinians.
At least Fatah were open to dialogue. Hamas want nothing less than
the annihilation of all Israelis and the destruction of Israel.

 

[Janer]

TY.

 

[robitusson]

Ok, sorry.
Janer reckons that Hamas are the good guys compared to the Israeli government.

I don't understand what you're trying to say.
The PNA governs Gaza and the West Bank.
Hamas governs the PNA which logically makes it the elected
representatives of the Palestinian territories.
I don't see how explaining 'What Palestine is' makes sense.
You were saying that Hamas don't represent a state, but they do.
You could argue that two divided territories don't constitute a
state, but for all intents and purposes it roughly describes the
situation.
What is your argument? That Palestine doesn't exist?


Israel doesn't want peace?
That is total bollocks.
Ask any Israeli what they want and they'll tell you they want to live
their lives without threat of being blown up, same as the Palestinians.
At least Fatah were open to dialogue. Hamas want nothing less than
the annihilation of all Israelis and the destruction of Israel.

So the Israelis keep saying. However there's only one people in the area that are getting annihilated and destroyed. If they want peace, then why do they continue causing conflict by maintaining the illegal occupation? The occupation causes the conflict with the Palestinians. They don't want peace. Anyone can see that.
And, yes, Palestine doesn't exist. Hamas are a terrorist organisation and they don't have a state army that represents that state. Israel does. This is why the actions of the two can't be compared. One is responsible criminally, the other isn't. Hamas respresent themselves. Fatah are corrupt as fuck. They're no improvement.

Surely what nations' armies do are to be held to higher account than illegal terrorists do ffs?

 

[the strange guy]

I think Palestine exists, as do most Palestinians.
I guess we won't be seeing eye to eye on this then!

 

[robitusson]

Probly. Surprisingly civilsed though.

"After you....no, no after you please I insist!"

 

[Cryptid]

Trying to characterise this as being between Israel and Hamas is wrong. It's between Israel and Gaza and the West Bank. Arguing about the evils of Hamas is a smokescreen for the much greater evils of the Israeli state. This argument just goes around and around.

 

[nlgbbbblth]

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[Froog]

stupid question: can gaza not get supplies and things along their coast from friendly nations?

 

[hugh]

stupid question: can gaza not get supplies and things along their coast from friendly nations?

The Israelis control the sea access as well. Naval blockade type of thing ...

 

[Froog]

more stupid questions: do palestinians generally support hamas?
what do hamas hope to achieve with rocket attacks? global sympathy?

 

[hugh]

more stupid questions: do palestinians generally support hamas?

Well, enough to vote for them. But that probably had a lot to do with general disenchantment with Fatah. I reckon if Fatah were not completely corrupt and willing to sell out for personal gain etc Hamas would be nowhere ...

 

[Janer]

Yep Hugh has it hit on the nail there.

 

[Unclealo]

Jesus this thread is painfull stuff. Israel's response to Hamas attacks is way over the top. End of.

Strange guy, its very easy to judge Hamas, and Palestinian militant attitudes, in general when you have basic stuff like say for instance, a country, running water, food.. and when successsive generations of your family are not being by Israeli security forces.

 

[Jelly_Block]

http://www.israelforum.com/board/forumdisplay.php?f=32

 

[the strange guy]

Strange guy, its very easy to judge Hamas, and Palestinian militant attitudes, in general when you have basic stuff like say for instance, a country, running water, food.. and when successsive generations of your family are not being by Israeli security forces.

If you want to excuse the atrocities Hamas have committed,
the children they've murdered, the civilians they've destroyed
then that's your decision.
I don't think because they have killed and maimed less people
than the IDF matters - any group with murder as their central
philosophy are evil fuckers.
My point is and was that both sides are evil, that there are
no good guys. Israel and Hamas are run by murderous bastards
with little humanity when it comes to their enemies.
I find the support Hamas has here in Ireland absolutely sickening
and would prefer to believe that it's due to misdirected sympathy
with victims of the IDF rather than a support for their war on
innocent Israeli civilians - but I'm not sure that's true.

 

[robitusson]

Who the devil supports Hamas? There's an outpouring of deserved bad-feeling for Israel, no doubt about it, but who actually supports Hamas and their aims politically? ???

 

[the strange guy]

I've met folks at pubs and sessions who support Hamas.
Student wankers, mostly.

edit:
And I was also referring to Unclealo's post which I saw as excusing
Hamas, based on the conflict's context whilst not actually supporting them.

 

[hugh]

My point is and was that both sides are evil, that there are no good guys. Israel and Hamas are run by murderous bastards with little humanity when it comes to their enemies.

I mostly agree with you here, but the problem for me is that many people take this further and assume there is then a sort of equal responsibility for the conflict and then use this as an excuse to "not care what happens", or "not take sides" in a sort of "ah sure aren't they all as bad as each other out there" way (I'm not lumping you in with this by the way).

The fact that Hamas are murdering bastards should not be allowed cloud the fact that they represent legitimate political aspirations. They wouldn't have been elected otherwise (I hope).

 

[D0njo]

stupid question: can gaza not get supplies and things along their coast from friendly nations?

TEL AVIV, December 30 (RIA Novosti) - Israeli naval ships have reportedly rammed a boat, carrying 16 international human rights activists and humanitarian aid, the regional media and international organizations said on Tuesday.
Dignity, a small cabin cruiser carrying over 3 metric tons of emergency medical supplies donated by the people of Cyprus, departed Larnaca Port in Cyprus late on Monday. When the boat was in international waters, reportedly some 115 km (71.5 miles) off the coast of Gaza, it was surrounded by Israeli warships.


http://en.rian.ru/world/20081230/119226903.html


Them Jews are really going crazy over there

 

[D0njo]

Shit sorry, I got that completely wrong, apparently it was an AIDS ship the Israelis rammed, they didn't want to fire rockets at it in case the AIDS got everywhere