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Palestine (1 Viewer)
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Carlow Punks!
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"Did Boycotts end Apartheid?"
Discuss.
Discuss.
Milker
Well-Known Member
"The time when Israel could be treated as a normal democratic state has now passed. The people and government’s of the world must isolate Israel, as they did apartheid South Africa in the past, until this killing stops and until Palestinian people attain real justice and self-determination."
Richard Boyd Barrett of the Irish Anti-War Movement would at least appear to suggest that boycotting SA was effective enough to inspire similar action upon the
Richard Boyd Barrett of the Irish Anti-War Movement would at least appear to suggest that boycotting SA was effective enough to inspire similar action upon the
Carlow Punks!
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proof enough for me...case closed!
killy kill
(Retired)
are the swp annoying people trying to buy oranges yet?
hey been reading this thread, some very good arguments all around and very informative altogether.
i have been thinking a bit about what you could to do help the situation, given the fact that we live in ireland and our voices maybe wouldn't count as much on the international scene perhaps.
anyway i went on the palestine march today and they were talking about the possibility of removing the israeli ambassador from ireland until israel complies with international law and stops this blatant massacre. i think this is a very good idea.
the man to mail about this is
[email protected]
or even just to mail him and let him know how disgusted you are by the whole situation.
i came home and checked the news and it said israel was gonna step up the bombardment of gaza. it really beggars belief.
i have been thinking a bit about what you could to do help the situation, given the fact that we live in ireland and our voices maybe wouldn't count as much on the international scene perhaps.
anyway i went on the palestine march today and they were talking about the possibility of removing the israeli ambassador from ireland until israel complies with international law and stops this blatant massacre. i think this is a very good idea.
the man to mail about this is
[email protected]
or even just to mail him and let him know how disgusted you are by the whole situation.
i came home and checked the news and it said israel was gonna step up the bombardment of gaza. it really beggars belief.
steve albino
New Member
From today's Guardian:
Enough. It's time for a boycott
The best way to end the bloody occupation is to target Israel with the kind of movement that ended apartheid in South Africa
Naomi Klein The Guardian, Saturday 10 January 2009
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/10/naomi-klein-boycott-israel/print
It's time. Long past time. The best strategy to end the increasingly bloody occupation is for Israel to become the target of the kind of global movement that put an end to apartheid in South Africa. In July 2005 a huge coalition of Palestinian groups laid out plans to do just that. They called on "people of conscience all over the world to impose broad boycotts and implement divestment initiatives against Israel similar to those applied to South Africa in the apartheid era". The campaign Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions was born.
Every day that Israel pounds Gaza brings more converts to the BDS cause - even among Israeli Jews. In the midst of the assault roughly 500 Israelis, dozens of them well-known artists and scholars, sent a letter to foreign ambassadors in Israel. It calls for "the adoption of immediate restrictive measures and sanctions" and draws a clear parallel with the anti-apartheid struggle. "The boycott on South Africa was effective, but Israel is handled with kid gloves ... This international backing must stop."
Yet even in the face of these clear calls, many of us still can't go there. The reasons are complex, emotional and understandable. But they simply aren't good enough. Economic sanctions are the most effective tool in the non-violent arsenal: surrendering them verges on active complicity. Here are the top four objections to the BDS strategy, followed by counter-arguments.
Punitive measures will alienate rather than persuade Israelis.
The world has tried what used to be called "constructive engagement". It has failed utterly. Since 2006 Israel has been steadily escalating its criminality: expanding settlements, launching an outrageous war against Lebanon, and imposing collective punishment on Gaza through the brutal blockade. Despite this escalation, Israel has not faced punitive measures - quite the opposite. The weapons and $3bn in annual aid the US sends Israel are only the beginning. Throughout this key period, Israel has enjoyed a dramatic improvement in its diplomatic, cultural and trade relations with a variety of other allies. For instance, in 2007 Israel became the first country outside Latin America to sign a free-trade deal with the Mercosur bloc. In the first nine months of 2008, Israeli exports to Canada went up 45%. A new deal with the EU is set to double Israel's exports of processed food. And in December European ministers "upgraded" the EU-Israel association agreement, a reward long sought by Jerusalem.
It is in this context that Israeli leaders started their latest war: confident they would face no meaningful costs. It is remarkable that over seven days of wartime trading, the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange's flagship index actually went up 10.7%. When carrots don't work, sticks are needed.
Israel is not South Africa.
Of course it isn't. The relevance of the South African model is that it proves BDS tactics can be effective when weaker measures (protests, petitions, backroom lobbying) fail. And there are deeply distressing echoes of apartheid in the occupied territories: the colour-coded IDs and travel permits, the bulldozed homes and forced displacement, the settler-only roads. Ronnie Kasrils, a prominent South African politician, said the architecture of segregation he saw in the West Bank and Gaza was "infinitely worse than apartheid". That was in 2007, before Israel began its full-scale war against the open-air prison that is Gaza.
Why single out Israel when the US, Britain and other western countries do the same things in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Boycott is not a dogma; it is a tactic. The reason the strategy should be tried is practical: in a country so small and trade-dependent, it could actually work.
Boycotts sever communication; we need more dialogue, not less.
This one I'll answer with a personal story. For eight years, my books have been published in Israel by a commercial house called Babel. But when I published The Shock Doctrine, I wanted to respect the boycott. On the advice of BDS activists, including the wonderful writer John Berger, I contacted a small publisher called Andalus. Andalus is an activist press, deeply involved in the anti-occupation movement and the only Israeli publisher devoted exclusively to translating Arabic writing into Hebrew. We drafted a contract that guarantees that all proceeds go to Andalus's work, and none to me. I am boycotting the Israeli economy but not Israelis.
Our modest publishing plan required dozens of phone calls, emails and instant messages, stretching between Tel Aviv, Ramallah, Paris, Toronto and Gaza City. My point is this: as soon as you start a boycott strategy, dialogue grows dramatically. The argument that boycotts will cut us off from one another is particularly specious given the array of cheap information technologies at our fingertips. We are drowning in ways to rant at each other across national boundaries. No boycott can stop us.
Just about now, many a proud Zionist is gearing up for major point-scoring: don't I know that many of these very hi-tech toys come from Israeli research parks, world leaders in infotech? True enough, but not all of them. Several days into Israel's Gaza assault, Richard Ramsey, managing director of a British telecom specialising in voice-over-internet services, sent an email to the Israeli tech firm MobileMax: "As a result of the Israeli government action in the last few days we will no longer be in a position to consider doing business with yourself or any other Israeli company."
Ramsey says his decision wasn't political; he just didn't want to lose customers. "We can't afford to lose any of our clients," he explains, "so it was purely commercially defensive."
It was this kind of cold business calculation that led many companies to pull out of South Africa two decades ago. And it's precisely the kind of calculation that is our most realistic hope of bringing justice, so long denied, to Palestine.
A version of this column was published in the Nation (thenation.com)
Enough. It's time for a boycott
The best way to end the bloody occupation is to target Israel with the kind of movement that ended apartheid in South Africa
Naomi Klein The Guardian, Saturday 10 January 2009
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/10/naomi-klein-boycott-israel/print
It's time. Long past time. The best strategy to end the increasingly bloody occupation is for Israel to become the target of the kind of global movement that put an end to apartheid in South Africa. In July 2005 a huge coalition of Palestinian groups laid out plans to do just that. They called on "people of conscience all over the world to impose broad boycotts and implement divestment initiatives against Israel similar to those applied to South Africa in the apartheid era". The campaign Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions was born.
Every day that Israel pounds Gaza brings more converts to the BDS cause - even among Israeli Jews. In the midst of the assault roughly 500 Israelis, dozens of them well-known artists and scholars, sent a letter to foreign ambassadors in Israel. It calls for "the adoption of immediate restrictive measures and sanctions" and draws a clear parallel with the anti-apartheid struggle. "The boycott on South Africa was effective, but Israel is handled with kid gloves ... This international backing must stop."
Yet even in the face of these clear calls, many of us still can't go there. The reasons are complex, emotional and understandable. But they simply aren't good enough. Economic sanctions are the most effective tool in the non-violent arsenal: surrendering them verges on active complicity. Here are the top four objections to the BDS strategy, followed by counter-arguments.
Punitive measures will alienate rather than persuade Israelis.
The world has tried what used to be called "constructive engagement". It has failed utterly. Since 2006 Israel has been steadily escalating its criminality: expanding settlements, launching an outrageous war against Lebanon, and imposing collective punishment on Gaza through the brutal blockade. Despite this escalation, Israel has not faced punitive measures - quite the opposite. The weapons and $3bn in annual aid the US sends Israel are only the beginning. Throughout this key period, Israel has enjoyed a dramatic improvement in its diplomatic, cultural and trade relations with a variety of other allies. For instance, in 2007 Israel became the first country outside Latin America to sign a free-trade deal with the Mercosur bloc. In the first nine months of 2008, Israeli exports to Canada went up 45%. A new deal with the EU is set to double Israel's exports of processed food. And in December European ministers "upgraded" the EU-Israel association agreement, a reward long sought by Jerusalem.
It is in this context that Israeli leaders started their latest war: confident they would face no meaningful costs. It is remarkable that over seven days of wartime trading, the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange's flagship index actually went up 10.7%. When carrots don't work, sticks are needed.
Israel is not South Africa.
Of course it isn't. The relevance of the South African model is that it proves BDS tactics can be effective when weaker measures (protests, petitions, backroom lobbying) fail. And there are deeply distressing echoes of apartheid in the occupied territories: the colour-coded IDs and travel permits, the bulldozed homes and forced displacement, the settler-only roads. Ronnie Kasrils, a prominent South African politician, said the architecture of segregation he saw in the West Bank and Gaza was "infinitely worse than apartheid". That was in 2007, before Israel began its full-scale war against the open-air prison that is Gaza.
Why single out Israel when the US, Britain and other western countries do the same things in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Boycott is not a dogma; it is a tactic. The reason the strategy should be tried is practical: in a country so small and trade-dependent, it could actually work.
Boycotts sever communication; we need more dialogue, not less.
This one I'll answer with a personal story. For eight years, my books have been published in Israel by a commercial house called Babel. But when I published The Shock Doctrine, I wanted to respect the boycott. On the advice of BDS activists, including the wonderful writer John Berger, I contacted a small publisher called Andalus. Andalus is an activist press, deeply involved in the anti-occupation movement and the only Israeli publisher devoted exclusively to translating Arabic writing into Hebrew. We drafted a contract that guarantees that all proceeds go to Andalus's work, and none to me. I am boycotting the Israeli economy but not Israelis.
Our modest publishing plan required dozens of phone calls, emails and instant messages, stretching between Tel Aviv, Ramallah, Paris, Toronto and Gaza City. My point is this: as soon as you start a boycott strategy, dialogue grows dramatically. The argument that boycotts will cut us off from one another is particularly specious given the array of cheap information technologies at our fingertips. We are drowning in ways to rant at each other across national boundaries. No boycott can stop us.
Just about now, many a proud Zionist is gearing up for major point-scoring: don't I know that many of these very hi-tech toys come from Israeli research parks, world leaders in infotech? True enough, but not all of them. Several days into Israel's Gaza assault, Richard Ramsey, managing director of a British telecom specialising in voice-over-internet services, sent an email to the Israeli tech firm MobileMax: "As a result of the Israeli government action in the last few days we will no longer be in a position to consider doing business with yourself or any other Israeli company."
Ramsey says his decision wasn't political; he just didn't want to lose customers. "We can't afford to lose any of our clients," he explains, "so it was purely commercially defensive."
It was this kind of cold business calculation that led many companies to pull out of South Africa two decades ago. And it's precisely the kind of calculation that is our most realistic hope of bringing justice, so long denied, to Palestine.
A version of this column was published in the Nation (thenation.com)
Milker
Well-Known Member
broken arm
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you may want to put a warning on that link.
....fucking hell.
So, in summary, Hamas broke the ceasefire, knowing there would be massive over reaction by the Israelis.
Hamas are cunts. All they care about is creating an environment where more people join Hamas and shoot Israelis.
Israel took the troll, and killed everything they could find, a la George Bush Jr stylee.
IDF are cunts.
This wont stop until there is a two state solution, but there cant be a two state solution because there are too many settlers and Israel hasn;t got the balls to tell them to get out.
And most of the Arab world hate Hamas.
The US wades in every few years, and tells the settlers they have to leave, and Israel says fine and do nothing.
The only way out is to get the settlers out, but the US hasn;t got the balls to actually force the issue.
This is completely fucked.
Completely.
broken arm
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Maybe it doesn't matter all that much but didn't Israel break the ceasefire when they fired some bombs into Gaza on the night of Obama's election?
See, Flash, you fell for the oldest trick in the book.
Hamas are not the "Bad Guys".
They're not necessarily the "Good Guys" either....
Anyone catch Vincent Browne's gig tonight?
I pity anyone who has Tom Cooney as a "Law" Lecturer in UCD, that's for sure.
What a complete and utter *.., if ever there was one.
And that is my belief.
What's going on in ucd is what I want to know.
Hamas are not the "Bad Guys".
They're not necessarily the "Good Guys" either....
Anyone catch Vincent Browne's gig tonight?
I pity anyone who has Tom Cooney as a "Law" Lecturer in UCD, that's for sure.
What a complete and utter *.., if ever there was one.
And that is my belief.
What's going on in ucd is what I want to know.
hamas and israel are cunts. israel is a bigger, angrier cunt.
you'd think palestinians would overthrow hamas or blame them in some way though, they know exactly how israel are going to reply to rocket attacks, with extreme force and 100's of civilian casualties. (not excusing israel by the way flame jockeys)
you'd think palestinians would overthrow hamas or blame them in some way though, they know exactly how israel are going to reply to rocket attacks, with extreme force and 100's of civilian casualties. (not excusing israel by the way flame jockeys)
platters
Member
mmm, I'm sure a 'who started it' debate is unhelpful, but I was also under the impression that Hamas started the latest round of violence. I thought that they started firing rockets because of Israel's policy of economic strangulation. Then I read this;
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nancy-kanwisher/reigniting-violence-how-d_b_155611.html
I wonder if the Palestinians romoved Hamas from government would it change Israeli policy? Looking at the above stats, I'm inclined to believe no.
The propaganda war being fought by Israel is truly something to behold! But of course fuck Hamas too.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nancy-kanwisher/reigniting-violence-how-d_b_155611.html
I wonder if the Palestinians romoved Hamas from government would it change Israeli policy? Looking at the above stats, I'm inclined to believe no.
The propaganda war being fought by Israel is truly something to behold! But of course fuck Hamas too.
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