NICE referendum ... (3 Viewers)

[billygannon]

Originally posted by Dan


zactly!!!! Man, to say a country should get more votes because of economic success would even make a capitalist like George Bush cringe. And I think to say spain (undereducated??) is going to make bold economic demands is a bit pot calling the kettle black-esque!! I mean we're from a country that demanded massive funds. All those roads, motorways and by-passes we drive around on - half the money that made those came out of French, German and Spanish taxpayers pockets.

A Spanish person will have more voting rights than a Czech person if the Nice Treaty is passed, simply because their government will have more vetoing rights than the Czech one. And a Czech person will not be able to vote in a Spanish election, nor will they be allowed to move there and enjoy the equivalent rights of a Spanish person for seven years.


And why is there a European parliament?
Why does it need to be more streamlined?

 

[Chocohead]

i thnk anyone who votes no to piss off the government needs to relax and read up on the issues. the link to the nice treaty earlier is only 16 pages long .. the versiun I have is almost 80 pages and it isnt even the government whitepaper on it.

Theres a lot ot this and I feel that most of you havent really looked at the issue properly. I've read the document and Im a member of sinn fein, through which I've done a lot of research on this. If the government could be more forward and give me some reasons to vote yes (enlargement, neutrality and job security has nothing to do with nice) then I might vote yes.

right now, as far as I see, this will create a two teir europe where some will be better than others .. and most better than us ... and the creation of an EU army will also have to be paid for .. no-one has explained to me how ireland intends to do that.

someone just answer those two points for me....

 

[Speed Racer]

Would this be more fair then? Give all of the current EU countries a standard 15 points each. And award the bigger ones an extra point for every 20 million people they have. Give the newly joining countires a stanard 10 points, and after 2-5 years they go up to the standard 15 plus. It would make things a good bit fairer. The vast difference between small and large countries is just too scary.

It means it would take Ireland, Denmark, Finland, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Cyprus just to out vote France for example on something that might be deemed unreasonable. Thats NOT right.

 

[P. Littbarski]

on the same note I have yet to read an intelligent summary/interpretation/leaflet on why to vote no from the no campaigners...with facts...or excerpts...from the referendum itself.

I also find it ironic that Sinn Feinn are calling for a No Vote when the no campaign is using posters with guns pointing at heads...

 

[P. Littbarski]

Originally posted by Speed Racer
Would this be more fair then? Give all of the current EU countries a standard 15 points each. And award the bigger ones an extra point for every 20 million people they have. Give the newly joining countires a stanard 10 points, and after 2-5 years they go up to the standard 15 plus. It would make things a good bit fairer. The vast difference between small and large countries is just too scary.

I suggest placing ten soldiers on the Ukraine, placing a cannon and a horsey on Irutusk and waiting for another RISK card before making another move...

 

[Speed Racer]

Maybe this will help if you want to see what the NO campaigners are on about.


http://www.nationalplatform.org/notnice/index.html

 

[Speed Racer]

Sorry here's a A Simple Summary.


http://www.nationalplatform.org/notnice/what_happens_if.html

 

[Pantone247]

just an interesting point on all this its un-democratic for The Government to have the same referendum again tafter we sadi NO thingy

We did have a general election inbetween.. people forget that

"we" (the people) voted the same chancers back in... by a huge margin by the way!

so you can hardly be upset when they have a referendum again... it was very clear they weren't happy with the first one

its not right, but if "we" (again we as in all the people) all felt so outraged out the idea of them doing this "we" should have done something about it at the general election

so voting NO just to rattle the cage seems a bit nuts in that light

I don't think its right, but its food for thought

 

[Chocohead]

Originally posted by P. Littbarski
on the same note I have yet to read an intelligent summary/interpretation/leaflet on why to vote no from the no campaigners...with facts...or excerpts...from the referendum itself.

I also find it ironic that Sinn Feinn are calling for a No Vote when the no campaign is using posters with guns pointing at heads...

... ironic maybe, but such posters arent sinn fein ones though. I was at a NO meeting where there were a lot of parties involved, greens, sinn fein labour etc .. so please dont over simply.

besides, why is a gun to someones head and sinn fein ironic??

Also, if you read the agreement you'll see why it isnt very easy to quote bits from it .. section this refers to section that, blah blah blah blah.

On the other hand, IO havent heard anything from the YES camp that has actually explaioned anything to me. llots of hot air and waffle but no explainations.

thats all Im looking for .. some honesty on the governments part. If i dont fully understand the results of voting yes, then i will vote NO. Im not stupid and I certainly dont trust a government to do my thinking for me. then again, if I dont have the full breakdown of the consqences (and things like europe will hate us, we've taken more than we've given .. all the same shite that keeps people in their place .. just doesnt cut it with me) and if voting NO delays things until we find out the real reasons behind NICe, then I'll vote NO. I think anyone who votes yes without fully understanding WHY they're voting yes, is a fool.

 

[Chocohead]

Originally posted by Pantone247
just an interesting point on all this its un-democratic for The Government to have the same referendum again tafter we sadi NO thingy

We did have a general election inbetween.. people forget that

"we" (the people) voted the same chancers back in... by a huge margin by the way!

so you can hardly be upset when they have a referendum again... it was very clear they weren't happy with the first one

its not right, but if "we" (again we as in all the people) all felt so outraged out the idea of them doing this "we" should have done something about it at the general election

so voting NO just to rattle the cage seems a bit nuts in that light

I don't think its right, but its food for thought

Im just glad that I wasnt one of the people who voted for FF .. i done the best I could to change the government

 

[billygannon]

Originally posted by Speed Racer


It means it would take Ireland, Denmark, Finland, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Cyprus just to out vote France for example on something that might be deemed unreasonable. Thats NOT right.

Nice will allow Germany, Spain, France, Britain and Italy to veto in areas that other countries are not allowed to. Therefore their citizens individually will hold more sway in European matters than a citizen of a country such as Cyprus. That's pretty clear and that is something called discrimination.

I'm going to keep re-iterating this veto point. That is what fundamentally creates the two-tier Europe.

 

[Speed Racer]

Originally posted by Pantone247


so voting NO just to rattle the cage seems a bit nuts in that light

I don't think its right, but its food for thought

Well I'm voting NO because I've read the Treaty (tedious, boring) and I've read both sides of the argument. The NO side made a stronger case in my point of view. I didn't vote for Fianna Fail because of this very issue. They are lazy crooked shits. But the Country as a whole voted them back in. The country also voted against Fianna Fail and said NO first time around. So why did they want Fianna Fail to continue with their incompetence? Does this mean we live in a hypocritical society? Perhaps. Or is it just the fact that the General election campaign was hugely publicised through the media. Was that their recipe for success? Or was it just the case that the opposition weren't very charismatic? Our Country was too chicken to try someone new, coz no one else stood out very well. This is the very reason why I think a YES vote will go through. Because our country fears the outcome because its so fuckin mysterious. No politicians are explaining the outcomes. Its all hush hush.

 

[Pantone247]

Originally posted by billygannon


Nice will allow Germany, Spain, France, Britain and Italy to veto in areas that other countries are not allowed to. Therefore their citizens individually will hold more sway in European matters than a citizen of a country such as Cyprus. That's pretty clear and that is something called discrimination.

I'm going to keep re-iterating this veto point. That is what fundamentally creates the two-tier Europe.

what about Turkey?

Turkey have about 100 million people.. or something...

so will Turkey suddenly wade in with a huge ammount of votes??

will they Billy??

huh Billy?

BILLY!!??

 

[Anne OMalley]

Yeah, that's a real teaser, that one.

Originally posted by Chocohead



besides, why is a gun to someones head and sinn fein ironic??

 

[Pantone247]

Originally posted by Speed Racer

Does this mean we live in a hypocritical society? Perhaps. Or is it just the fact that the General election campaign was hugely publicised through the media. Was that their recipe for success? Or was it just the case that the opposition weren't very charismatic? Our Country was too chicken to try someone new, coz no one else stood out very well.

I think FF explotied the holes in democracy to a huge degree... they have highlighted a huge flaw in the system... democracy don't work if your a greasy lying shit!!

its reasonable to assume that once we said NO that was the end of the that... even when we vote in FF its still reasonable to assume that they will respect the decision we had made. They didn't... they didn't have to... but as Is aid it was "reasonable" to assume they would

its becoming more and more apparant that these are not reasonable people we are dealing with, they are lying carriest scum who's main agenda is to keep themsleves in power no matter what!

nice!

 

[billygannon]

Originally posted by Pantone247


what about Turkey?

Turkey have about 100 million people.. or something...

so will Turkey suddenly wade in with a huge ammount of votes??

will they Billy??

huh Billy?

BILLY!!??

Well, being Turkish I am all for Turkey coming into the EU. And having loads and loads of votes.

So... just to re-iterate my point....

Turkey should bomb England

 

[Chocohead]

Originally posted by Anne OMalley
Yeah, that's a real teaser, that one.

its not meant to ber a teaser. No unless you have had your head in the sand for the last ten years and havent realised that sinn fein have moved a lony way down the peace path.

anyway, when I was a kid it was Sinn Fein who got the thugs that made my teenage years a living hell off my back and not the ruc. I could start a seperate thread aboutt his, but it makes me sick listening to the various views people have on sinn fein when realistically those same people make most of their assumptions on hearsay of one form or another and tend to ignore the simple fact that sinn fein have actually done quite a lot of good for irish politics

 

[Chocohead]

im a crap seller btw. speller, i mean

 

[Anne OMalley]

Start a thread then, Choco. Let us hear what you have to say. I'd like to know - seriously.

Sell it out for us - I mean, spell it out for us.

Originally posted by Chocohead
im a crap seller btw. speller, i mean

 

[Chocohead]

another time maybe.