NICE referendum ... (1 Viewer)

[Chocohead]

anyone voting yes, cus i aint. Im just interested to see how many of you find the whole referendum a bit of a blow to so called democracy since we said no last year. like, if we say no again, will they keep asking til they get a yes?

thats only one worry about it. what was the whole gibbering about neutrality about, since those agreements bear no relation to a yes vote. say yes to nice and say goodbye to neutrality (though that may be a good thing). even at that, we arent neutral anyway at the minute. also theres the fact of the two levels of power proposed, where it currently is that all countries are equal, the lack of an irish commissioner and the reduction from around 4% say to just over 2% of a say in what goes on. and to top it all the government isnt saying much except weird things like save jobs, be part of europe and other non substantiated mumurings. and then the PDs have this poster of a kid with a feel sorry for me look and vote yes type message on it ...

.. sorry, i was rambling.

anyone give a shit?

 

[Dan]

Originally posted by Chocohead
and then the PDs have this poster of a kid with a feel sorry for me look and vote yes type message on it ...

...and the No campaign has a poster of a guy with a gun to his head.....

 

[Speed Racer]

Originally posted by Chocohead
anyone voting yes, cus i aint. Im just interested to see how many of you find the whole referendum a bit of a blow to so called democracy since we said no last year. like, if we say no again, will they keep asking til they get a yes?

thats only one worry about it. what was the whole gibbering about neutrality about, since those agreements bear no relation to a yes vote. say yes to nice and say goodbye to neutrality (though that may be a good thing). even at that, we arent neutral anyway at the minute. also theres the fact of the two levels of power proposed, where it currently is that all countries are equal, the lack of an irish commissioner and the reduction from around 4% say to just over 2% of a say in what goes on. and to top it all the government isnt saying much except weird things like save jobs, be part of europe and other non substantiated mumurings. and then the PDs have this poster of a kid with a feel sorry for me look and vote yes type message on it ...

.. sorry, i was rambling.

anyone give a shit?

The fact that we voted NO before on this thing seems not to matter to a government who want a YES vote. It does seem that if its a NO vote again, they'll be back in a year and so on and so on, till they get a YES. Just for this alone, I'm voting NO. It's kind of bullying the general public. I have to read up on the Treaty to see if there are any changes for the good. Probably not though. I think its the same with anything Fianna Fail want. Like abortion. People vote for abortion, that means they'll be back in a couple of years with a new campaign trying to ban it. Spanners!

 

[Dan]

I actually don't think they're will be another referendum if theres a No vote. Europe will basically say fuck them and go on ahead without us. And then when things start turning to shit, peoples long term memory might be restored and they'll think "wait a minute, we did actually need europe". And I think you should vote No because you're against the treaty rather than to punish the government as you are suggesting speedracer.

 

[flashpants]

As far as I know, if we don't ratify the treaty it can't go ahead, it's basicaly everybody or nobody. Also asking us to vote again so soon on something that the country rejected isn't democratic. When we voted no it's the government duty to go and get the changes we want, or at least try. What do Bertie and Fat Lip Cowen do? Apologise and tell the other heads of state not to worry and get us to vote on the same thing again.

 

[#10-7]

if we vote no it delays a lot of other countries who want to get into europe from entering.
if we vote yes, in a few years there will be a rotating system of european government where the smaller nations, ireland included will not have a permanent seat.
votes on goverment issues will be dealt out to countries according to their size, ie- france germany britan will have a lot more than ireland, denmark, lux etc.

if we vote 'no' the government will be embarrassed and will try to push it through AGAIN next year. the treaty cannot continue until we pass it.

(on the subject of ireland loosing its neutrality, our neutrality is bullshit. we became neutral because DeV in the ww2 didn't want to stand behind britain, beause we had just got free from them, and it would have been a sore point, but couldn't stand against them. everything since has been a shallow attempt. we let warplanes fly over our airspace, we let them refuel, we soliders.. the first person to die in the gulf was a dublin man named Duffy... etc etc etc...)

 

[Speed Racer]

Originally posted by Dan
And I think you should vote No because you're against the treaty rather than to punish the government as you are suggesting speedracer.

I was only making a point. I'm actually reading up on the Treaty now. It looks pretty much the same as the last one. Don't take everything so literally please. Ta

 

[Dan]

I do recognise that the treaty cannot go ahead without us. But I really think that thats just the theory. I don't think the EU will halt its progress for a small nation of 3.5million that has taken far more than it has ever contributed.

 

[#10-7]

part of the rules dano.
but i betcha bertie will be nervously goin' over saying 'eh.. don't mind them... i'll sort it out...'

its a pr disaster if we say no again, the french papers ran stories of ireland biting the hand that feeds it etc... bertie doesn't want that...

although some of the tabloids were suggesting that bertie will fire or disapline mccreevy as the FF stock drops to gain voter confidence... FF really want a YES....

 

[flashpants]

It's all fine and well FF wanting a yes vote but if the populace vote no well that's tough shit for them. They'll have to go and seek changes that will have the approval of the population.

no vote campaign

 

[IFF]

Originally posted by Chocohead
and then the PDs have this poster of a kid with a feel sorry for me look and vote yes type message on it ...

must be related to a PD member

in the council of ministers we and denmark will have the same amount of votes 7 but then again we have less than 4 million and denmark has 5 million, is this Democratic?

i've sent off a registration form to be on the electrocate on tuesday so hopefully it'll arrifve there and i'll have a vote at the Nice treaty

i'm not sure which i will vote yet, i don't know enough information about it yet

in my town, Ardee, there are only like two posters for the nice referendum up and both of them are "vote yes" posters with no pictures and just words

 

[Speed Racer]

Re: Re: NICE referendum ...

Originally posted by IFF


in my town, Ardee, there are only like two posters for the nice referendum up and both of them are "vote yes" posters with no pictures and just words

Damn. It's so easy to score down the country. In every way

 

[Dan]

Originally posted by lorcanzo
part of the rules dano.

its a pr disaster if we say no again, the french papers ran stories of ireland biting the hand that feeds it etc... bertie doesn't want that...

Part of the rules...rules are for you and me, Governments care not for these things. Its against the rules to attack a country that hasn't attacked you, but you don't see it bothering the bush admistration. By the same token, why is the EU going to worry about rules if one minor state is impeeding its progress.

People think a PR disaster will be bad for bertie. Don't be worrying about Bertie, he'll be fine, people in his position always are, guys like that never end up out of pocket. Its you and me that a PR disaster will hurt. We have no indiginous industries, few anyway, and if Ireland has a bad image (which it already has.. surveys have shown its one of the most corrupt countries in Europe), then fuck all peole are going to want to invest in this country, hence you and me jobless...

 

[Anne OMalley]

Democracy on the Never-Never

I reckon people who vote "No" will agree that their position can be described by at least one of the following three statements:

(i) "I am a Euroskeptic."

(ii) "I fear Irish neutrality will be compromised if the Nice Treaty is ratified."

(iii) "I want to punish the Government by voting against the treaty."

But it seems that only the first of these positions would actually be a logical ground for actually voting "No". After all, nearly everyone agrees that Ireland's neutrality is non-existent. And nearly everyone agrees that using Nice to embarass, or even sabotage, the Government is an inappropriate tactic.

Moreover, voting "No" just because the Government didn't accept the result first time round would be to distort the will of the people in a way that's as far removed from the spirit of democracy as anything the Government has done. Of course we don't have democracy here - it's an ideal, it doesn't exist anywhere.

So the question you have to ask yourself is this: am I a Euroskeptic?

If so, vote "No". If not, vote "Yes".

 

[billygannon]

It's a pity you can't sum up why you should vote no to Nice in one or two sentences.

But I'll give it a shot....

If Nice is ratified, we are legally handing control over to the British, French, German, Spanish and Italians. If they decide to look after themselves, then all the smaller nations, including all those wanting to join, will be fucked.

 

[Speed Racer]

Originally posted by billygannon
It's a pity you can't sum up why you should vote no to Nice in one or two sentences.

But I'll give it a shot....

If Nice is ratified, we are legally handing control over to the British, French, German, Spanish and Italians. If they decide to look after themselves, then all the smaller nations, including all those wanting to join, will be fucked.

Nice one Billy. Thats it exactly.

 

[Chocohead]

what billy said.

and the government should make more of an effort to tell both sides of the story, not just push a yes vote. thats their job, to inform us all of ALL the issues.

 

[spiritualtramp]

Originally posted by billygannon
It's a pity you can't sum up why you should vote no to Nice in one or two sentences.

But I'll give it a shot....

If Nice is ratified, we are legally handing control over to the British, French, German, Spanish and Italians. If they decide to look after themselves, then all the smaller nations, including all those wanting to join, will be fucked.

that is so not true.did you actually read the treaty?can you point out the bit were we are "handing over control"?we will have the same control we ever had.
the treaty of nice is about amending the institutional structure of the eu ,to facilitate the enlargement of the eu.
the only reason we are voting on it is due to our constitution.as far as i know ,no other eu country had a vote for it.if the nice treaty is such an evil treaty why was there no major outcry in any other european country over it?because there is nothing of any real importance in it , thats why.
if the treaty is ratified we will have 2% of the voting weight in the council of ministers ,the same as denmark or finland.ireland will still have a level of representation far above that justified by our small population.
how exactly do you fear the brits etc will look after themselves?what will they do?look around at our country ,it owes the eu quite a lot in case you had not noticed.
just because we are a small nation does not mean we will be fucked by the larger ones , nor will those wanting to join get fucked over.
the smaller nations wanting to join will be much more fucked if we delay their membership.ever think about that?
it will not affect our "neutrality" in any way shape or form.

it seems to me that the vast majority of those voting no are doing it to piss of bertie and company.whilst i have plenty of issues with the irish government i do not think a vote on reforms in the european union ,which is very important to the impending states, is the right time to show disgust at the incompetence of irish politicians.

all a no vote will do is fuck things up for the poverty stricken east european countries.sorry but im not going to fuck up millions of peoples lives just so i can wreck berties head.

 

[Anne OMalley]

I'm going along with the spiritual hooer on this one. If someone can show me - I'm talking precise textual references here - how ratification of Nice would cause our representation in Europe to be significantly diluted, I'll reassess my own position.

As it is, I find it hard to take the "No" position seriously because it just sounds to me like a version of Euro-scepticism.

I really hope someone will have a substantial reply to this.

Originally posted by spiritualtramp


that is so not true.did you actually read the treaty?can you point out the bit were we are "handing over control"?we will have the same control we ever had.
the treaty of nice is about amending the institutional structure of the eu ,to facilitate the enlargement of the eu.
the only reason we are voting on it is due to our constitution.as far as i know ,no other eu country had a vote for it.if the nice treaty is such an evil treaty why was there no major outcry in any other european country over it?because there is nothing of any real importance in it , thats why.
if the treaty is ratified we will have 2% of the voting weight in the council of ministers ,the same as denmark or finland.ireland will still have a level of representation far above that justified by our small population.
how exactly do you fear the brits etc will look after themselves?what will they do?look around at our country ,it owes the eu quite a lot in case you had not noticed.
just because we are a small nation does not mean we will be fucked by the larger ones , nor will those wanting to join get fucked over.
the smaller nations wanting to join will be much more fucked if we delay their membership.ever think about that?
it will not affect our "neutrality" in any way shape or form.

it seems to me that the vast majority of those voting no are doing it to piss of bertie and company.whilst i have plenty of issues with the irish government i do not think a vote on reforms in the european union ,which is very important to the impending states, is the right time to show disgust at the incompetence of irish politicians.

all a no vote will do is fuck things up for the poverty stricken east european countries.sorry but im not going to fuck up millions of peoples lives just so i can wreck berties head.

 

[Dan]

Originally posted by spiritualtramp




it seems to me that the vast majority of those voting no are doing it to piss of bertie and company.whilst i have plenty of issues with the irish government i do not think a vote on reforms in the european union ,which is very important to the impending states, is the right time to show disgust at the incompetence of irish politicians.

all a no vote will do is fuck things up for the poverty stricken east european countries.sorry but im not going to fuck up millions of peoples lives just so i can wreck berties head.

This really, really worries me. Its something that is really predominant in this country is misplaced anger. I remember seeing a news report after Xerox in dundalk closed down and some guy roaring into the microphone, "we're coming to get you Bertie, we're coming to get you". The factory was not closed down by Bertie Ahern, but this guy seems to think that it is his fault personnally, and now his pissed and wants to take out his anger. Its this kind of attitude I think that is going to get a lot of the No vote. I know most people here are more inteligent than that, but I would bet my life that a huge number of people in this country are going to vote No because a government memo proposing €900 million euros was leaked, because the IT company they work for went bust, because Ray Burke is corrupt, etc.., none of which is relevant to the Treaty.

And before anyone twists my words, I'm not using the above as a reason to Vote Yes, even though thats what I'll be voting, I'm just voicing a concern.