NICE referendum ... (4 Viewers)

[P. Littbarski]

I am personally still undecided on how I will vote, but i want to know what provisions have been made in case the result is NO...as far as I can tell no provisions have been made, hence the same treaty is being voted on again.

If the majority vote no, can Ireland be 'kicked out', excluded from european involvement ? I don't think so, but if this is the case, it will justify the no vote. After all, if a member country of the EU excercises it's democratic right (and we are one of the few countries who is voting on this remember) and is punished in whatever way (probably economic as this is the main concern of the heads of the EU anyway) it will prove that the EU is not the great democratic forum it is meant to be.

This is further highlighted by the fact that the same treaty is being put forward again, with no changes whatsoever. If the people of the ascencion countries were aware of this (and not a lot of people outside of ireland are aware of the nice treaty in ireland, let alone that we are now onto Nice II) I'm sure they would become suspicious..."keep on voting until we like the result."

Another thing that is not mentioned is that the countries joining still have to vote themselves on joining up and from reading some reports, talking to people and seeing some tv shows (rte had a 30 minute program about poland some days ago that was very interesting) there is still no guarantee that all these countries will vote yes to joining up ( i wonder if any country in the history of the EEC/EC/EU has ever had a vote and decided not to join ?)

Another thing is that the countries joining up will not get the full benefits, travel rights, farming subsidies etc. of current member states, they will effectively be second class citizens and this is a cause of concern (understandibly) for some people in the countries set to join....and if they see a current member being punished for airing their views it will be counter productive and testimony to the undemocratic ways and views of the EU.

 

[billygannon]

alright....


If I vote yes, Germany will be able to use a veto on a lot more issues than Ireland. Therefore, a German person, through their elected representatives, has more power than a person who is Irish... or Belgian... or Croatian.. or Slovenian.... or Czech... or a Finn..... and I cannot vote in a German election.

 

[Speed Racer]

I don't think that there is a reason at all to worry about the outcome of the vote. It will be YES. The government have spent so much money on promoting a YES vote, and this time around the NO vote voices have been keeping very quiet in the media. So largely people will think that the wrinkles have been ironed out of the treaty. Which they haven't. And the people will do what they are told by the massive amount of posters and TV/Radio promotions. And a big Fat YES will go through. But once it's done, there's no going back.

 

[#10-7]

i wrote a real long involved post and i died somewhere on the way in... anyway some external politics not directly contained in the treaty itself

when nice1 went through first, denmark was the only EU contry to ratify it. bertie went to europe and said 'sorry bout dat lads, we'll sort it out for yez'. we now have an identical treaty, i-fucking-dentical, whcih we have to vote on. at this stage the rest of europe went ahead and now only belgium and us have not said yes. belgium's government will have an answer in the next few months, and it is expected to be yes.
therefore europe is waiting and will be watching.
poland and malta would probably be the next two invited in. if we say yes, they could be members in two years. if we say no, it will be at least four.

bertie and the government are therefore standing with europe, against the irish people.

nice eh?

 

[Speed Racer]

All we can do is read the thing from start to finish. Then make up our minds.


http://www.irlgov.ie/iveagh/nice/default.asp

http://www.irlgov.ie/iveagh/nice/SUMMAREN.PDF

 

[P. Littbarski]

Originally posted by Speed Racer
I don't think that there is a reason at all to worry about the outcome of the vote. It will be YES. The government have spent so much money on promoting a YES vote, and this time around the NO vote voices have been keeping very quiet in the media. So largely people will think that the wrinkles have been ironed out of the treaty. Which they haven't. And the people will do what they are told by the massive amount of posters and TV/Radio promotions. And a big Fat YES will go through. But once it's done, there's no going back.

you see I think it's not going to be passed, and I don't think looking at this from the point of view that "There is no reason to worry, after all we have spent lots of money on posters" is a healthy one...thats pretty much what happend the last time and look what happend. It's a fact, particulary in Ireland, that throwing money at a problem is not the solution. And people in Ireland will not "do what they are told" anymore, hence a growing number WILL vote no as a reaction to the attitude/deceit which fianna fail have been associated with since being re-elected. I predict another low turnout, as the nice treaty has not been explained (it can't be explaind as most of it is ammendments to other treatys - it does not make much sense to joe soap) and no one can agree on what is actually being voted on. If Prodi is confused by what the treaty means, is about and what the results of a yes or no vote means, what chance is there for the punter on the street to really comprehend the treaty ?

 

[P. Littbarski]

Poland seeks compensation for farmers

10:48 Friday September 27th 2002

Poland is seeking large compensation for its farmers to help them survive the open competition conditions after enlargement takes place. As the enlargement countries have to start off with only 25 per cent of direct agriculture payments compared to existing members, Poland is looking for possibilities for higher quotas and extended tariff protection. The Polish negotiation stance on farming, seen by the Financial Times, showed that Warsaw is looking for possibilities to transfer rural development funds to direct payments for the farmers. However, Warsaw is worried that it might not be able to fully use all these different funds because of the co-financing and bureaucratic requirements. Poland is planning to keep the tariffs on products like grain, hops and tobacco, although it is very likely that this will face a strong opposition among existing EU members.

 

[Speed Racer]

Originally posted by P. Littbarski


you see I think it's not going to be passed, and I don't think looking at this from the point of view that "There is no reason to worry, after all we have spent lots of money on posters" is a healthy one...thats pretty much what happend the last time and look what happend.......

All of the Joe Soaps will vote Yes. And down in the country it will be a YES majority (as usual). Dublin will have the highest NO count as usual, but the the whole country will have a YES vote go through. It might be slim, but it will go through. The government are using economy scare tactics to put fear into the ordinary citizen, that if Ireland votes NO again, we're outta business. Thats Bollox. So everyone assumes something has changed in the treaty, that Europe has threatened to punish Ireland economically if we say no. Thats what the Joe Soaps are seeing everywhere they look. Personally I've read through most if it and I don't like the fact that we have so little power in Europe. 7 vote points! Compared to Spains 27! There are way bigger countries with bad unemployement who WILL eventually throw around their weight and want to share the wealth. To rid themselves of their own financial pressures. Thats what the whole fuckin thing is about in the first place. Thats why Poland are desperate to join. Things are bleak there, as in many other new countries wanting to join. They see the EU as their saviour. Its really all about business. And Ireland owe the EU bigtime. Do you really think things aren't gonna change financially?

 

[Dan]

Originally posted by P. Littbarski

a growing number WILL vote no as a reaction to the attitude/deceit which fianna fail have been associated with since being re-elected.

There it is again... not relevant.

 

[Dan]

Originally posted by Speed Racer


7 vote points! Compared to Spains 27!

Population Ireland: 3.5 million
Population Spain: 39.7 million

Work the ratio out there!!!!

 

[P. Littbarski]

Originally posted by Dan


There it is again... not relevant.

i'm not saying it's my opinion, but people will vote no because of this. If you are saying it's not a valid/relevant reason to vote no I totally agree. On the other hand if you are saying that it's not relevant as it will not affect the result of the referendum it is being very short sighted.

 

[#10-7]

speey, spain is way more than four times as big with a population more than 4 times as big. why shouldn't they get more votes?

do you think it should be 1 country one vote?
do you think our 3.5 million should have the same amount of votes as germany's 81 million? or france's 56 million? or britains 60 million?

as anirish citizen i will have 6 times as much say as a german citizen. is this not enough?

oh and the nice treaty is actually not needed for enlargement, it jsut delays it to say no.

 

[Dan]

Originally posted by P. Littbarski


i'm not saying it's my opinion, but people will vote no because of this. If you are saying it's not a valid/relevant reason to vote no I totally agree. On the other hand if you are saying that it's not relevant as it will not affect the result of the referendum it is being very short sighted.

I choose option 1. From the way I read it, it sounded like you were advocating a No vote on the basis of disliking the government, so, like, uh...sorry

 

[P. Littbarski]

Originally posted by Speed Racer


All of the Joe Soaps will vote Yes. And down in the country it will be a YES majority (as usual). Dublin will have the highest NO count as usual, but the the whole country will have a YES vote go through. It might be slim, but it will go through.

I'm not a soothsayer, and therfore won't attempt to predict the final outcome. But I do think it's dangerous to assume anything, which is what you are doing. I thought that the referendum was meant to have been ratified the last time...oops...that didn't happen...I know we'll knock it on the head a second time...and the result is Blankety Blank ?

how are you going to vote if you don't mind me asking ?

 

[Speed Racer]

Originally posted by Dan


Population Ireland: 3.5 million
Population Spain: 39.7 million

Work the ratio out there!!!!

THats a bit obviuos innit? You think I didn't know that? Heres a scenario for ye. A large country (with a shit economy, lacking educated financial people to figure out their problems) with alot of votes makes a bold economic demand in the EU. Collectively all of the countries will have to support that country economically if what they demand is ageed. Ireland may have a tiny population, but we have may more money for our size than some of the new and up and coming EU members. Spread the wealth is what they'll say, we'll be out voted and have to do what they want.

I think the voting points should be dished out in accordance to how well the country is positioned economically. Not just based on population. It just seems like such a blind way to do it.

 

[Speed Racer]

Originally posted by P. Littbarski


I'm not a soothsayer, and therfore won't attempt to predict the final outcome. But I do think it's dangerous to assume anything, which is what you are doing. I thought that the referendum was meant to have been ratified the last time...oops...that didn't happen...I know we'll knock it on the head a second time...and the result is Blankety Blank ?

how are you going to vote if you don't mind me asking ?

I've read the Treaty, and I think the government could have made some changes in Europe but were too embarrassed to. Thats their job. Voice the opinion of the population. We have the same treaty that I disagreed to the last time. I'm still not pleased with the Treaty. It seems like we will be pushed around like the rest of the smaller countries (of which only Denmark and Finland have a decent economy). We will be on an equal par with Lithuania, Slovakia and the other two. There's alot of balancing of wealth goin to be needed to be done. France, Britain, Germany, Italy, and Spain make these decisions for us. Lets not forget how crooked politicians can get. It will happen eventually as it always does.

So I am voting no again.

 

[#10-7]

Originally posted by Speed Racer

I think the voting points should be dished out in accordance to how well the country is positioned economically. Not just based on population. It just seems like such a blind way to do it.

sooo.... hold on, you think the richer the country or the higher gnp or whatever the more votes they should get? on the basis of their wealth? and not the size? are you crazy? are you saying spain is full of undereducated dopes? what the fuck are you saying?

seriously!

 

[Speed Racer]

Originally posted by lorcanzo


sooo.... hold on, you think the richer the country or the higher gnp or whatever the more votes they should get? on the basis of their wealth? and not the size? are you crazy? are you saying spain is full of undereducated dopes? what the fuck are you saying?

seriously!

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that points should be at first sorted out by economic situations and then later by population as it fluctuates. Then when all of the wealthier countries have made decisions on how to equally share out wealth, and the poorer countries have been stablised, and their education/welfare systems have been sorted out, then we should dish out the points by population. So no small country is way too rich and no Big country is way too poor and vice versa. So all of the countries can be closer to an equal economically.

 

[Dan]

Originally posted by lorcanzo


sooo.... hold on, you think the richer the country or the higher gnp or whatever the more votes they should get? on the basis of their wealth? and not the size? are you crazy? are you saying spain is full of undereducated dopes? what the fuck are you saying?

seriously!

zactly!!!! Man, to say a country should get more votes because of economic success would even make a capitalist like George Bush cringe. And I think to say spain (undereducated??) is going to make bold economic demands is a bit pot calling the kettle black-esque!! I mean we're from a country that demanded massive funds. All those roads, motorways and by-passes we drive around on - half the money that made those came out of French, German and Spanish taxpayers pockets.

 

[Speed Racer]

Originally posted by Dan


zactly!!!! Man, to say a country should get more votes because of economic success would even make a capitalist like George Bush cringe. And I think to say spain (undereducated??) is going to make bold economic demands is a bit pot calling the kettle black-esque!! I mean we're from a country that demanded massive funds. All those roads, motorways and by-passes we drive around on - half the money that made those came out of French, German and Spanish taxpayers pockets.

I used Spain as an example of a large country. Call it Germany or France if you want. And never stated I thought Spain was under educated. In mentioning education I was referring to places like Slovakia and Slovenia which are struggling. I understand your point Dan. Its a true point. What I was saying at the start was that a YES vote will dramatically change things for Ireland.

Awarding points on population just seems wrong. There must be a better way of sorting the points. If this was a world union, and China and India were joining, they would rule the world votes points wise because of their massive populations. And would take more control than anyone. Would this be fair?