Lisbon Treaty (3 Viewers)

[Froog]

Irish voters views on BBC site:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7433480.stm

 

[karljacuncha]

Look- will someone just tell me the right way to vote on this thing?

yes, you can either:
conscientiously abstain;
don't bother, it's pointless; or
be too punk to vote

there are a few compelling arguements both for and against (but luckily neither side actually use any oif them), but overall, there very little that the treaty will do.

The arguements being given are:

Yes: "Yay for money and Europe - they're great. Fecked if i'm reading that document though..."

No (a): "BOO! Europe bad, catholicism and traditional Ireland Good! ... Fecked if I'm reading that document though..."

No (b): "Capitalism & Imperialism are bad mkay, we don't want the EU to turn out like the US. ... Fecked if I'm reading that document though..."


The reason it's a long, terse, load of legalese/bollix is that it's just a load of ammendments to previous treaties.
They did try to slim it down, make it a bit more accessible, and just replace all the old treaties, but at that stage it was called the constitution.
People voted no to that - so they've re-worked it to be this set of amendments.
(ok, so it's not exactly the same, but basically... Something similar, but a little more blatant, happened last time when people voted no to Nice, as you may remember.)

...of course none if this actually affects whether the combined package of varying points that is the treaty is any way beneficially, or even useful - but since only the extremes & the possibilties are getting a mention anyway, it's not like any of that is going to make any difference anyway.

So - Vote NULL!


And btw, to all the arguments about neutrality - you do realise that Ireland is already involved in an EU battlegroup, yeah?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Battle_Group

 

[Raudi Raus Schinkel]

have you www.checktheregister.ie?

What y'all think of Mr Justice Iarfhlaith O' Neill today?

Cleared a few things up for me.

There will be still trips to England on the ferry anyway

but the further QMV on defence - they couldnt answer that

 

[Goff]

there are a few compelling arguements both for and against (but luckily neither side actually use any oif them), but overall, there very little that the treaty will do.


And btw, to all the arguments about neutrality - you do realise that Ireland is already involved in an EU battlegroup, yeah?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Battle_Group

There are no compelling arguments to vote yes for me.

Another of the reasons I'll be voting no is that it is a constitution by any other name. And give the EU the status of a sovereignty. A Federation by stealth, to paraphrase Tony Benn.

Oh, and re neutrality. We haven't been neutral for a long time. I don't know why everyone thinks we are. And I'm not even talking about Shannon and the "Coalition of the Willing". Don't mind the Nordic Battlegroup; that doesn't mean anything. We've been on active service with NATO for years, among other things. Oh, as peacekeepers, under a UN Mandate, but it's still NATO.

There's only been No Campaigners calling to my door in the Fingla'. Probably because the constituency voted two of the laziest and effete Fianna Fail candidates in the last time round and they're assured of their "victory".

 

[flashback]

The Catholic church and Sinn Fein want us to vote no.

You had me at Catholic church, but, yeah, Sinn Fein too?
Yes for me.

 

[hugh]

We've been on active service with NATO for years, among other things. Oh, as peacekeepers, under a UN Mandate, but it's still NATO.

What you on about here? Kosovo?

 

[Goff]

What you on about here? Kosovo?

For a start, yeah.

 

[Cormcolash]

My main problem with this referendum is that it only has two options, and I want to see a third option in there:

OPTION 1 - YES
OPTION 2 - NO

OPTION 3 - I FUCKING HATE IRISH POLITICIANS, I FUCKING HATE EUROPEAN POLITICIANS, AND I WISH YOU WOULD ALL MEET HORRIBLE 'ACCIDENTS' INVOLVING POLICEMEN THAT RESULT IN YOUR DEATHS.

or to put it more mildly

OPTION 3 - I completely disagree with your power-mongering politics that are designed to allow one small group of people to gain dominance over a much larger group of people, and therefore I will be voting neither yes or no to your referendum as I see a vote either way to be an endorsement of said politics.

Strangely enough, option 3 never seems to exist on referendums or elections. You'd almost think the people who organise these things didn't want to give the plebs the opportunity to say that, or didn't want to have an actual statistic available on how many people think that way.

 

[frona]

I went to the debate in Limerick anyway. There were Book of Revelation nutters there! They think the EU is a ten-headed beast out of Revelation, even though as the flippant Fine Geal dude pointed out the EU has never never had ten member states. Anyway why do these people think that they can avert stuff that is prophesised in their holy book? Does it make them good christian fundamentalists to try? Is there a bit in that book (there isn't cos I read it for the monsters.|..|) where it says "this is what's gonna happen but god wants you guys to try and change the future".


D'you know what's becoming really common these days as well? Sane, normal people hearing the likes of Jim Corr and saying that he's got a point there. I mean bits of it are kinda true BUT STILL! My solicitor boss voiced her belief in Jim Corr's theories the other day. These are the end times indeed.

 

[F. Fred Palakon]

What about the younger generation of the work force? We will be priced out of a job when they open the flood gates to eastern european workers being exploited 'legally' like in that case of the Latvian construction workers in Sweden. That shit is not cool. Ireland would be pissed on by Europe, and we'd have no say in the matter as we are a tiny populated country compared to Germany and France etc.

Vote NO to these pricks!

I like being in Europe, but I don't want to be ruled by Europe.

If you're worried about being priced out of a job, worry about market competitiveness from the East, not Latvians coming to Ireland and stealing your job.

Ireland has a minimum wage and strong trade unions. Didn't the situation you descrived above already happen in 2005 with Gama, and they were forced to cough up? The notion that an influx of immigrants will drive down wages leaving young Irish people jobless is a fallacy. What is threatening Irish jobs is the increased likelihood of foreign direct investment pulling out of Ireland and moving to China or India or whatever.

 

[Froog]

lads, in a few thousand years we'll have a global government of earth, so get used to it. the old tribal ways will have no place in the new galactic order.

 

[Goff]

I went to the debate in Limerick anyway. There were Book of Revelation nutters there! They think the EU is a ten-headed beast out of Revelation

Dear God. They don't do themselves any favours, do they? Still, it would have been gas to see that debate.

D'you know what's becoming really common these days as well? Sane, normal people hearing the likes of Jim Corr and saying that he's got a point there. I mean bits of it are kinda true BUT STILL! My solicitor boss voiced her belief in Jim Corr's theories the other day. These are the end times indeed.

Jim Corr is right. He may have explained it a bit arse-over-tit (he did only have a few minutes), but the majority of what he was talking about was true. The jury's still out on whether or not the WTC was a controlled demolition, but there's an awful lot of evidence that points that way. I'd be fairly confident that someone allowed the whole thing to happen, as a modern day Operation Northwoods.

If you're worried about being priced out of a job, worry about market competitiveness from the East, not Latvians coming to Ireland and stealing your job.

Ireland has a minimum wage and strong trade unions. Didn't the situation you descrived above already happen in 2005 with Gama, and they were forced to cough up? The notion that an influx of immigrants will drive down wages leaving young Irish people jobless is a fallacy. What is threatening Irish jobs is the increased likelihood of foreign direct investment pulling out of Ireland and moving to China or India or whatever.

It's not a fallacy. Just because there is the very high likelihood that foreign investors will be pulling out (as they already are) doesn't mean that the other shit won't happen. Because it is and it does. One doesn't cancel out the other, so you have a double whammy effect, added to the high-cost of living in this country. We've priced ourselves out of the market. Well done, Bertie and Co.

And we no longer have powerful trade unions in this country. The minimum wage is being flouted quite openly in some cases and no one is doing anything about it.

 

[lucky_dresden]

I went to the debate in Limerick anyway. There were Book of Revelation nutters there! They think the EU is a ten-headed beast out of Revelation, even though as the flippant Fine Geal dude pointed out the EU has never never had ten member states.

What about the 10 accession states who joined on 1 May 2004? Is this when the EU became the whore of Babylon? Babylon? Iraq!!!!! We whored ourselves for the invasion of Iraq. Where's Grassy Knollington when you need him.

The truth is out there!

 

[Froog]

then the illuminati have already won.

 

[simp]

Poll shows Lisbon Treaty heading for shock defeat

Stephen Collins, Political Editor
The Lisbon Treaty is heading towards a shock defeat with the No side now in the lead, according to the findings of the latest Irish Times/TNS mrbi poll.
It will take an unprecedented swing in the last week of the campaign for the Treaty to be carried.
The poll shows the number of people intending to vote No has almost doubled to 35 per cent (up 17 points) since the last poll three weeks ago, while the number of the Yes side has declined to 30 per cent (down 5 points).
The number of undecided voters is still a significant 28 per (down 12 points) cent, while 7 per cent won’t vote.
The massive increase by the No vote since the last poll has mainly come through gains among undecided voters but, even more ominously for the Yes side, it has lost some support to the No camp.
While the final outcome is still in the hands of undecided voters, the clear momentum is now with the No campaign, and it will take a dramatic shift in public attitudes over the next few days for the Yes side to win.
The swing to the No camp has not been prompted by domestic considerations, with just 5 per cent of those opposed to the Treaty saying they are influenced by a desire to protest against the Government.
The reason most often cited by No voters is that they don’t know what they are voting for or they don’t understand the Treaty, with 30 per cent of No voters listing this as the main reason for their decision.
The poll was conducted last Tuesday and Wednesday among a representative sample of 1,000 voters in face-to-face interviews at 100 sampling points in all 43 constituencies. It was taken in the middle of the controversy over the World Trade Organisation talks.
That issue came to a head on Tuesday afternoon with the announcement by the Irish Farmers' Association that it would support a Yes vote following the declaration by the Taoiseach, Brian Cowen, that he would use the veto to block any deal unacceptable to Ireland if the issue was put to a vote.
The poll showed that farmers are opposed to the Treaty by 34 per cent to 31 per cent. The No majority among working class C2DE voters is much bigger with Labour voters shifting in large numbers from the Yes side. It indicates that opposition to the Treaty expressed by some trade unionists is having an impact.
In class terms, the Yes campaign is only ahead among better off ABC1 voters. Fianna Fáil voters continue to back the Treaty, but even in that category the No campaign has made massive strides in the past three weeks with a gain of 15 points to 25 per cent, while the proportion of Yes voters has fallen by five points to 42 per cent.
A clear majority of Fine Gael voters are now against the Treaty by 40 per cent to 30 per cent, while among Labour voters there has been a massive turnaround with the No side almost doubling its support to 47 per cent with 30 per cent of party supporters in favour.
Ironically, given the party’s previous stance on the EU, the strong support for the Treaty comes from among Green Party supporters.
Sinn Féin voters are overwhelming in the No side in line with their party’s position.



http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0605/breaking84.htm

 

[pete]

From the bbc

An influential Polish member of the European parliament has called for the EU to develop "hard power" and spend more money to build a European army.Foreign affairs committee chairman Jacek Saryusz-Wolski also wants the European parliament to have the final say on deployments under the EU flag. The French have said beefing up the EU's military capability will be a key part of their six-month presidency. The BBC has been told their plans also include a new EU military headquarters. Other items on the French list of proposals involve calling upon all EU countries to increase spending on defence to meet a new target of perhaps 6% of Gross Domestic Product.

Obviously nobody sent the Poles that "don't rock the boat before the paddys have their stupid referendum" memo.

 

[F. Fred Palakon]

Poll shows Lisbon Treaty heading for shock defeat

Was Thumped the canary in the coal mine of the Yes campaign?

 

[maims bond]

Haven't read any of this thread. Been trying to get my head around the whole thing. Basically, i'm leaning towards no for the simple reason that people in France and the Netherlands voted virtually the same thing down a few years back. They have no opportunity to do so now. Is that a good enough reason?

If not, then the Motorcaravan Club of Ireland seem to be leaning towards the no as well, so i'm gonna row in with them.
http://motorcaravanclub.net/pollpage.asp

 

[Beanstalk]

I've just discovered it's 479 pages long

Are there any podcasts available with a balanced debate on this?
I can go for a long walk and take it all in.

Not the whole thing, mind...just a discussion.

 

[pete]

The Yes side in the Lisbon Treaty campaign remains ahead among crucial committed voters, despite gains for the No side in the past fortnight, according to the final tracking poll of the campaign.

The Yes side retains a slender 3 point lead among all those entitled to vote. However, among the 50 per cent of voters who say they are absolutely certain to vote, the Yes side leads by 9 points - a substantial, but not decisive, lead to take into the final days of campaigning.

http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS-qqqs=news-qqqid=33567-qqqx=1.asp