Lisbon Treaty (1 Viewer)

[Mormon Nailer]

i knew I'd be perceived as taking a particular side in this......

at the moment i can't say whether accounatbility is threatened because i feel subsidiarity in the european context is relative. I am personally biased to think this because of my work in the area of environmental/industrial policy within europe - i have seen structural changes in how we create value, meaning, culture and business without anyone even so much as batting an eye-lid.

Now there is this fake situation of one region having to make a decision that affects many regions/people... Is this a symbol of democracy? Should democracy be the right to reject or the right to build? I.e. do I vote no because of a constellation of personal fears, prejudices and paradigms or do i vote no because I have a strong vision of a what the europe/world/dublin I want is and how we can make it.

I don't think the need or the want to present an alternative is a limit to debate - it's the opposite.

I'd see myself as voting no exactly because I have a strong vision of a what the Europe I want, and this particular treaty doesn't offer it.

But I still don't agree that it's necessary to provide an alternative vision in order to reject. The thing is placed in front of the electorate - it's either acceptable to them or it isn't.

Your idea of how things works looks like this for me:

Brian Cowen: Mormon bend over till I fuck you up the ass
Me: Sorry Brian but no one is fucking me up the ass this evening
Brian Cowen: That's just not good enough Mormon, If I cant fuck you up the ass then you should tell me exactly how I can fuck you.
Me:?

 

[La La]

whho invented the word 'Treaty' anyway?

it makes me think of loads of wham bars, cup cakes and other sweet goodnesses.

 

[broken arm]

Brian Cowen: Mormon bend over till I fuck you up the ass
Me: Sorry Brian but no one is fucking me up the ass this evening
Brian Cowen: That's just not good enough Mormon, If I cant fuck you up the ass then you should tell me exactly how I can fuck you.
Me:?

ha.

on another note - http://twentymajor.net/2008/05/13/serious-discussion-of-the-lisbon-treaty/

 

[pete]

“Pete?”
“I’m voting ‘penis’”
“What?”
“I’m going to draw a great big penis on the ballot paper. If I can be bothered going all that way when I could just stay at home and draw penises on my sketch pad.”

that was meant to be a private conversation

 

[Goff]

------------------------------------------

"The Treaty is not self-amending as its critics sometimes claim. It makes absolutely clear that any future changes must be ratified in accordance with the constitutional requirements of each Member State.

Article 1.56 of the Reform Treaty (sometimes referred to by Treaty opponents as Article 48 of the Treaty on the functioning of the European Union) provides that any future move to confer additional powers on the EU, or to alter the provisions of the Treaties, would continue to require an Intergovernmental Conference (normally preceded by a Convention made up of representatives of national parliaments and Governments and the EU institutions). This is known as the “ordinary revision procedure”.

A proposal to amend EU internal polices in a way that does not increase the Union’s competences would not require an IGC. Any such decision would still have to be ratified in accordance with the constitutional requirements of each Member State. This procedure is called the “simplified revision procedure”.

In Ireland, this means that advice will be sought from the Attorney General on each occasion as to whether a referendum is required. The Government would be guided by the advice of the Attorney General.

Article 1.56 also contains another “simplified revision procedure”. This provides that the European Council, acting unanimously, can decide that a policy should in the future be decided by QMV rather than unanimity. Any such decision can be vetoed by any Government or any national parliament. This procedure cannot be used with respect to security and defence matters. "

You'd be better off reading the treaty itself rather than someone's version of it. I'd try and copy and paste it here, but they've made it a bit difficult by their PDF controls. I must unlock it later. Very hard to read on screen too. So much for Disability Rights. One politically appointed individual is going to decide if a referendum is needed? That doesn't wash with me. What happens when he decides it isn't? There's a few more paragraphs in the actual treaty about how that one will work. But it's hidden in smaller text a bit further down.

 

[killy kill]

is the basic objection to a yes vote?
it passes and E.U. law supercedes/overwrites/whatever/ irish constitutional law or what?

Any non-partisan 'lisbon treaty for dummies' floating around?

 

[Scientician 0.8]

There's way too much "feck Bertie", "feck FF", "feck Europe" going on. And as much as I like saying "feck you, Bertie Ahern", that has nothing to do with this treaty.

All politics is local.

 

[Goff]

is the basic objection to a yes vote?
it passes and E.U. law supercedes/overwrites/whatever/ irish constitutional law or what?

Any non-partisan 'lisbon treaty for dummies' floating around?

Non quite, but it will soon enough. It's unnecessary. What we have already works to a large extent. They're heading for a Federal Europe (A Bloc, if you will), only they're doing it by stealth. We'll be eventually called Oceania.

I haven't found a non-partisan anything about it yet. The piece of shit they threw the door just obfuscates even more and is quite selective in what it says.

 

[hugh]

One politically appointed individual is going to decide if a referendum is needed? That doesn't wash with me. What happens when he decides it isn't?

Isn't that always the case though? The Attorney General makes a decision about whether something requires a referendum, treaty or not? That's one of things he is appointed for ...

And I take your point about reading the actual thing ... but who has the time?

 

[Goff]

Isn't that always the case though? The Attorney General makes a decision about whether something requires a referendum, treaty or not? That's one of things he is appointed for ...

And I take your point about reading the actual thing ... but who has the time?

Ah yeah, but what happens if he decides we don't? At the moment we can pretty much force the issue by going thru the courts. Not so sure what will happen after this thing.

As for who has the time? Well, certainly not our new Teeshock: http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0512/eulisbon.html

Speaking on RTÉ Radio's News At One, Mr Cowen said he had not read the treaty cover to cover, but argued it was not an impenetrable document.

 

[Bunny]

I'm highly suspicious of the vote Yes campaign. They seem like they're basically threatening us. "Ooooh if ye all vote No it will be a disaster!" I hate this mentality in our government. Its ok for them to think a Yes is a great idea, they've all got cushy jobs in politics, with nice pay rises whenever they feel like it. Their jobs aren't in jeopardy if it goes through. They've got nice big pensions.

What about the younger generation of the work force? We will be priced out of a job when they open the flood gates to eastern european workers being exploited 'legally' like in that case of the Latvian construction workers in Sweden. That shit is not cool. Ireland would be pissed on by Europe, and we'd have no say in the matter as we are a tiny populated country compared to Germany and France etc.

Vote NO to these pricks!

I like being in Europe, but I don't want to be ruled by Europe.

 

[torpid]

How come all the posters for the no vote have no details on who put them up, i.e. organisation names? are they embarrassed by the affiliation people have with Socialist worker, youth defense type orgs? Thats what initially had me wondering what the no vote was all about. The info in the FF and Lisbon treaty leaflet reads like none of the things on those posters are true, such as Govt. losing power, the defense argument etc. I don't know what/who to believe.

Hasn't the trend toward transparency in Europe forced our Govt. to look at themselves and attempt to clean up their act to keep in line (various tribunials etc)? Has Europe any laws to prevent fuckers like McNamara construcion pulling out of 5 Public/Private partnership Social housing projects around dublin worth 900 Million Europs? I can't say I trust our decision makers any more or less than those in france and Germany

 

[pete]

How come all the posters for the no vote have no details on who put them up, i.e. organisation names?

they do - it's the law. it's just that it's in really really small writing.

 

[pete]

Austrian activists are urging Irish voters to reject the Lisbon Treaty in a letter-writing campaign backed by Declan Ganley’s Libertas.

An Austrian group which is campaigning against the Lisbon Treaty is supplying names and addresses of Irish voters to activists through its website. It is asking them to write looking for a No vote in the forthcoming Lisbon Treaty referendum.

Rettet Österreich (Save Austria) has consulted Libertas, the group led by entrepreneur Declan Ganley, on its campaign. Ganley travelled to Vienna a fortnight ago to meet the group and accompanied them to present a petition urging a No vote to the Irish embassy.

Rettet Österreich has been described as a far-right group in some media reports, a label it disputes. It has lodged an official complaint with the state broadcaster.

However, a rally held by Rettet Österreich in Vienna on March 12 was attended by members of the National People’s Party, a group that espouses Nazi-style race theory. It also advocates Austrian exit from the EU. It is campaigning against the construction of a mosque in the city of Linz, which it describes as a ‘‘pig mosque’’.

A Libertas spokesman confirmed to The Sunday Business Post that the group had been consulted by Rettet Österreich, but said there were ‘‘no formal links between the two groups’’. The Austrian group has also produced the ‘‘three monkeys’’ image that has been used by Coir, another anti-Lisbon group.

http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=33182-qqqx=1.asp

 

[pete]

also

http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=33184-qqqx=1.asp

 

[pete]

http://rettet-oesterreich.at/index.php?id=187

 

[Goff]

It doesn't matter what their politics are if they're rejecting it for the right reasons. It's not as if they're going to be running the place if it's a no vote. Although the recent turn towards towards the right in France and Italy is slightly worrying, if not unexpected. Italy. Sure isn't that the birthplace of fascism.

 

[Goff]

Ah, good old Brian Lenihan:

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0526/1211740436694.html

A similar comment was made by Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan when he was asked a question about Mr Cowen's alleged "dictatorial" style of leadership. "He has overwhelming support among the Fianna Fáil voters for a Yes vote, so I hope the Opposition parties will be a little dictatorial with their own electorates and ensure that what we all agree is in Ireland's interests will happen, a Yes vote."

His choice of words is great. They should be more dictatorial with their electorate? Is it now acceptable to say urge dictatorship? When does it stop, Brian? When does it stop?!!!

I'd like to do a bit of dictating to Mr Lenihan: Take a note. I have in my hand a piece of paper. It has "Lisbon" written on it. I'd like you to take it, roll it into a big mickey shape, and shove it up your hole. End.

 

[Wheels]

they do - it's the law. it's just that it's in really really small writing.

http://thatsireland.com/

 

[potlatch]

We will be priced out of a job when they open the flood gates to eastern european workers being exploited 'legally' like in that case of the Latvian construction workers in Sweden.

To be honest, I think both sides are being disingenuous. I was at a meeting a few months back geared at policy wonks and bureaucrats, where you'd expect a bit more balanced analysis. This whole Laval and Viking thing was used as an example.

The speakers seemed to say that the reality is, the Charter of Fundamental Rights will and won't protect workers' rights. On one hand, it introduces really good protections; on the other, the Treaty suggests that rights of economic exchange in the common market trump labour rights. But the outcome of any future dispute similar to Laval and Viking is far from certain because the application of fundamental rights over such issues is ambiguous. It's typical of EU legislation as negotiated international treaties. One of the speakers was Blair Horan, the ICTU/Civil and Public Service Union dude.

The conclusion was that Lisbon, in this area, will be of moderate positive benefit. Not, "WOW, IT'S TOTALLY AWESOME!" or "IT'LL MURDER MOTHER IRELAND". Not the tone you're getting in the campaign

I think this is pretty characteristic of the Treaty as a whole: some really good stuff, and some really bad stuff. For the developing world, it's terrible, for business it's great, it's potentially awful for Irish neutrality, but it could be good for labour rights, and despite the democratic deficit it could be good for EU-level accountability, but it'll slowly lead to the destruction of public services.

Austrian activists are urging Irish voters to reject the Lisbon Treaty in a letter-writing campaign backed by Declan Ganley’s Libertas.

That's fuckin' scary about Ganley. I've been doing a bit of snooping on him. What the fuck are his motives? Weak EU, pliable eastern Europe, strong NATO, i.e. loads of lucrative military-industrial complex contracts. Prick.