Lisbon Treaty (2 Viewers)

[IFF]

those polls are meaningless as it's all within the margin of error of the polls

 

[Gabbo]

Mary Lou McDonald has a face on her like a swollen ballsack and the teeth of trout. Hope this helps.

 

[Mormon Nailer]

She looks like a bulldog licking piss off a nettle.

 

[socmot]

My 2 cent as follows:

The Lisbon Treaty is the successor to the EU Constitution that was being voted on across the EU some time ago. The France and Dutch electorates voted no to that Constitution, and a period of reflection was entered into by the EU. The Lisbon Treaty, a reform treaty, resulted from that period of reflection.

The Lisbon Treaty presents for me a fundamental flaw and one that forces me to reject it when Ireland goes to the polls to vote on it on June 12th. All member states of the EU must ratify this treaty in order for it to pass. Ireland is the only country that will actually hold a referendum on it, consulting the Irish electorate in a direct vote. The rest of the member states of the EU will ratify it by a parliamentary vote.
To put it another way, the Irish electorate of 3 million people will have a massive influence over the larger EU electorate of just under 500 million people. There is a democratic deficit - the Irish people have a direct vote, other electorates have an indirect vote, in that those they voted to elect to the respective parliaments of EU states will vote on their behalf.

When just one out of the 28 states in the EU gets to ratify by referendum, I tend to thing something is wrong in the implementation mechanisms of the EU. Has it crossed the minds of those arguing for a yes vote that this process is far more controlled than the original implementation of the EU Constitution? Is nobody worried about this - I have heard very little on this particular issue.

In terms of EU referenda, Ireland should be grateful to Raymond Crotty, who took a case in the 1980's in Ireland, which led to the Supreme Court finding that the Irish government must consult the Irish electorate directly on EU referenda. I wish the outcome of his case would be adopted by member states of the EU, and the citizens of those states be allowed to vote in EU referenda. As it is, an electorate of 3 million will be deciding on behalf of almost 500 million of their fellow EU citizens. That is not democratic and I will not support such circumstances. One small country voting on the Lisbon Treaty directly, and the other countries voting on it indirectly is not a compromise, as is usually argued, in allowing each EU member state to decide how to ratify EU treaties. Although not deliberate, it results in little more than a diktat, in my opinion. It is a flawed approach that derives from a national parliamentary system. The EU has its own parliament - the citizens that elect that parliament should be voting on this referendum, adopting the Irish case of Crotty.

There are some good things in this Treaty - but I will vote no, on the basis of dissatisfaction with how it is being implemented across the Union that I am proud to be a citizen of.


Our Constitution ... is called a democracy because power is in the hands not of a minority but of the greatest number.

– Thucydides II, 37.

The above quote was the first thing said in the EU Constitution. It's a good starting point and it should be adhered to.

 

[Goff]

Brian Lenihan debating against Kathy Sinnott the other night (that somehow doesn't seem like a fair debate, but she held her own) more or less said that if the rest of Europe had a say and there was an EU wide referendum, then that's something we should be afraid of. When he said, "we", I can only assume that he was talking about him and his cronies, but that's not what he meant. I'm not sure if he was stating that they know the rest of Europe would vote no, or if he is anti-democratic.

But it was a load of wank.

 

[Mormon Nailer]

Brian Lenihan debating against Kathy Sinnott the other night (that somehow doesn't seem like a fair debate, but she held her own) more or less said that if the rest of Europe had a say and there was an EU wide referendum, then that's something we should be afraid of. When he said, "we", I can only assume that he was talking about him and his cronies, but that's not what he meant. I'm not sure if he was stating that they know the rest of Europe would vote no, or if he is anti-democratic.

But it was a load of wank.

It pains me to say this but Mary Lou wiped the floor with Lenihan the other morning on Morning Ireland.

 

[Goff]

It pains me to say this but Mary Lou wiped the floor with Lenihan the other morning on Morning Ireland.

It pains me too, but she seems to be the only one who understands it. Enda Kenny couldn't cope with her on Q&A last night without resorting to slagging people off. And referring to the tried & tested, "Sure youse are the 'Ra," tactic, which, in fairness, was completely off-topic.

 

[hugh]

It pains me to say this but Mary Lou wiped the floor with Lenihan the other morning on Morning Ireland.

I'm not surprised. Brian Lenihan is a bit of a fuckwit.

Here, does anyone know who is actually funding this Libertas crowd? The amount of posters I've seen in the last few days is mental ....

 

[Mormon Nailer]

I'm not surprised. Brian Lenihan is a bit of a fuckwit.

Here, does anyone know who is actually funding this Libertas crowd? The amount of posters I've seen in the last few days is mental ....

the CIA according the the whispering campaign by the government.

 

[Space]

I'm not surprised. Brian Lenihan is a bit of a fuckwit.

Here, does anyone know who is actually funding this Libertas crowd? The amount of posters I've seen in the last few days is mental ....

Declan Ganley the president of Libertas who happens to be a multi million(or is it billion) aire I'd imagine. I'd say Ulick McEvaddy might be putting some money up too.

Interesting article here on both of their business interests:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/87311

 

[Goff]

Ruairi Quinn and a bunch of (very young) boys were standing outside the GPO asking people to vote yes. Where we proclaimed our nationhood! What is this? Full circle? Shame on you, Mr Quinn. Shame on you.

Biffo was just on RTE after Mary Lou (Why do they keep bringing out the big guns after MEP'S?). He still doesn't know what it's all about by the sound of it and wouldn't go into details (a sure sign). Think Mary Lou got the upper hand again, even after that clown Dobson tried, badly, to scupper it, following the by now tired RTE line.

Reading between the lines, Cowen intimated that the only reason we'll remain "neutral", is because it is the wish of the Government. Of course, that is present tense. As usual, when draconian laws are introduced, it's the next shower you have to watch out for. So, fuck them and their Referendum Veto on Defense. It doesn't exist. They can change their mind at will. Say, if we were ever attacked by terrorists.

If we vote yes, I'd be fairly certain that if the EU are mobilising for war, we'd be attacked by "terrorists".

 

[hugh]

If we vote yes, I'd be fairly certain that if the EU are mobilising for war, we'd be attacked by "terrorists".

You know you say all sorts of sensible stuff and then ruin it all by coming out with the craziness.

Thanks for the link Moose .... it seems then that Indymedia and the Irish Government have come to broadly similar conclusions. How bizarre! What's next? Kevin Myers and Sinn Fein agreeing about something?

Oh hang on ... that's happened too.

 

[Umfufu]

My 2 cent as follows:

The Lisbon Treaty is the successor to the EU Constitution that was being voted on across the EU some time ago. The France and Dutch electorates voted no to that Constitution, and a period of reflection was entered into by the EU. The Lisbon Treaty, a reform treaty, resulted from that period of reflection.

The Lisbon Treaty presents for me a fundamental flaw and one that forces me to reject it when Ireland goes to the polls to vote on it on June 12th. All member states of the EU must ratify this treaty in order for it to pass. Ireland is the only country that will actually hold a referendum on it, consulting the Irish electorate in a direct vote. The rest of the member states of the EU will ratify it by a parliamentary vote.
To put it another way, the Irish electorate of 3 million people will have a massive influence over the larger EU electorate of just under 500 million people. There is a democratic deficit - the Irish people have a direct vote, other electorates have an indirect vote, in that those they voted to elect to the respective parliaments of EU states will vote on their behalf.

When just one out of the 28 states in the EU gets to ratify by referendum, I tend to thing something is wrong in the implementation mechanisms of the EU. Has it crossed the minds of those arguing for a yes vote that this process is far more controlled than the original implementation of the EU Constitution? Is nobody worried about this - I have heard very little on this particular issue.

In terms of EU referenda, Ireland should be grateful to Raymond Crotty, who took a case in the 1980's in Ireland, which led to the Supreme Court finding that the Irish government must consult the Irish electorate directly on EU referenda. I wish the outcome of his case would be adopted by member states of the EU, and the citizens of those states be allowed to vote in EU referenda. As it is, an electorate of 3 million will be deciding on behalf of almost 500 million of their fellow EU citizens. That is not democratic and I will not support such circumstances. One small country voting on the Lisbon Treaty directly, and the other countries voting on it indirectly is not a compromise, as is usually argued, in allowing each EU member state to decide how to ratify EU treaties. Although not deliberate, it results in little more than a diktat, in my opinion. It is a flawed approach that derives from a national parliamentary system. The EU has its own parliament - the citizens that elect that parliament should be voting on this referendum, adopting the Irish case of Crotty.

There are some good things in this Treaty - but I will vote no, on the basis of dissatisfaction with how it is being implemented across the Union that I am proud to be a citizen of.


Our Constitution ... is called a democracy because power is in the hands not of a minority but of the greatest number.

– Thucydides II, 37.

The above quote was the first thing said in the EU Constitution. It's a good starting point and it should be adhered to.

I thought the main reason we were being asked to vote was because we have to amend our constitution to allow the treaty.

If other countries don't need to amend their constitutions then I don't see why the citizens need to vote on every EU referendum.

The fact that their parliaments (which were elected democratically by the people) are making the decision makes perfect sense.
That's what their job is.
To make decisions in the best interest of those who elected them.

I'm still not sure which way I'll vote but there seems to be a lot of people voting no for reasons which have nothing to do with the actual content of the treaty.

 

[Unicron]

I'm still not sure which way I'll vote but there seems to be a lot of people voting no for reasons which have nothing to do with the actual content of the treaty.

Aren't the IFA recommending a yes vote for reasons that have nothing to do with the content of the treaty?

 

[Umfufu]

I was talking about people, not farmers.

But seriously folks,
I was referring to general folk that I've been talking to, vox pops on the radio & the occasional poster on Thumped.

Obviously there are people on the 'yes' side who are doing the same thing but so far, IMO, most of them are 'no' voters.

 

[Goff]

You know you say all sorts of sensible stuff and then ruin it all by coming out with the craziness.

Hardly ruins it all. Never be afraid to think the worst; it's the only way to prepare for it. It's not as if it hasn't happened before. You only have to look at the past to see what they're capable of. And by them, I mean 6.

Seriously, you have to laugh about it all. This is the future we're talking about.

Aren't the IFA recommending a yes vote for reasons that have nothing to do with the content of the treaty?

The IFA may be, but not all of them. There's still a lot of farmers who are very much opposed to this thing. But then, that's democracy.

 

[Goff]

If other countries don't need to amend their constitutions then I don't see why the citizens need to vote on every EU referendum.

Because, as was mentioned earlier in the thread (not too far back), we have to have a referendum when it's to do with Europe (or anything that would inherently change our constitution). This is for your protection. The Government have the power to create laws only if they agree with the constitution. The constitution supercedes the law. I suppose you could say it's the Ultimate Law. That's what we vote them in for. Not to change the constitution. That's OUR prerogative.

 

[ratmonkey]

I'm still not sure which way I'll vote but there seems to be a lot of people voting no for reasons which have nothing to do with the actual content of the treaty.

Don't know who said this, but a referendum is where you ask people one question and they answer a different one.

 

[Gambra]

This thread should be locked now. Isn't it illegal to campaign the day before a vote?

 

[Goff]

This thread should be locked now. Isn't it illegal to campaign the day before a vote?

Not at all.