Let's have a debate about immigration (1 Viewer)

[Squiggle]

Re Ireland is a shit hole dump etc etc. It's not. It just isn't. Its not the prettiest place on the planet, but its not a bad place, it has a hell of a lot going for it.
Live in New Jersey for a year, come back to me, and tell me Ireland is a dump. I dare yeh.

I'm not saying that Ireland is a dump. I'm just saying that I don't see how the addition of people from other cultures will somehow diminish the country.

 

[egg_]

I'm not being cynical, it is actually very much a reality of life in Ireland that you do have to fight to hold on to what you've got. The only people who don't have to fight are those who have too much, or too little

...

Agricultural industries such as dairy, fishing, market gardening and all the others, are fighting for survival - and losing.

Ah Sarah, you're arguing with the letter of what I'm saying rather than the spirit. Can you put money in the bank today and be fairly sure it'll be there in 10 years? Yes. Can you spend a day in Dublin with your engagement ring on and expect to still have it at the end of the day? Yes. Can you do a week's work and be fairly sure you'll be paid the agreed amount at the end of the week? Yes. That's the shit I'm talking about, not whether or not farmers have it hard

 

[Juno]

Ah dudes, I'm not talking about cultural identity, dammit! I'm talking about civilisation - the unspoken agreement we all have that limits how nasty we can be to one another.

But surely most societies share the same basic tenants of civilisation, at least in principle, although the reality of political and economic conditions in some places make it hard for people to abide by these. In terms of how to act within Irish society, well I think that is a cultural issue. It's also a personal one. There are a lot of born and bred Irish people who seem to ignore the type of unspoken rules that you're talking about because it doesn't suit them to respect the rights of others/pass other people in the street without kicking them/mow their lawns. Subtle cultural nuances might go over the heads of some immigrants but time and exposure usually results in some degree of familiarisation with these things and in my opinion a lot of Ireland's unspoken agreements could do with a shake up.

 

[Squiggle]

Ah Sarah, you're arguing with the letter of what I'm saying rather than the spirit. Can you put money in the bank today and be fairly sure it'll be there in 10 years? Yes. Can you spend a day in Dublin with your engagement ring on and expect to still have it at the end of the day? Yes. Can you do a week's work and be fairly sure you'll be paid the agreed amount at the end of the week? Yes. That's the shit I'm talking about, not whether or not farmers have it hard

I'm not talking about farmers. There are people who face forced buy-out of their homes so that high rise apartment blocks can be built as part of city rejuvination schemes.

Are you saying that immigrants are going to steal my engagement ring - if I had one, or prevent me from being paid for working (and, I have been stiffed for wages by a number of Irish employers over the years), and do you think that they are going to steal my money from the bank (the bank will see to that all by themselves )

 

[broken arm]

Of course it's smoke and mirrors. But it's that smoke and those mirrors that make Ireland an easier place to live in than Sudan

true but the issues that make Sudan the way it is isn't as much to do with the mechanics of social contracts as it is to do with politics, history (poverty), religion, geography, climate etc .

The internal functioning of a refugee camp may be more socially like what you are looking for than the way they are in parts of ireland - if you know what I mean???

 

[Pantone247]

Not directly, but if there were enough people in the country who didn't take that for granted, then maybe we wouldn't have it anymore.

Maybe. I don't know. What do you think?

I think the biggest problem with immigrants is it gives The Crazies something to get hysterical about. I don't think we have anything close to an "immigration problem" I just don't think the numbers are there yet... not even anywhere near close... I can't imagine anyone here has directly had any bad experience with immigrants and it all seems like a lot of "but what if..."

The only gripe I have with the immigration policy is that a lot of the people coming over are from stable, if economically not to hot countrys, whom it would probably be better if they stayed to help build their own economy rather then come here and clean our McBurger shops... But is it our job to stop them, or their home nations jobs to encourage them to stay?

I guess a similar thing happened here in the 90's when the computer industry was used as a "kick up the arse" to the job market

 

[flashback]

Ah Sarah, you're arguing with the letter of what I'm saying rather than the spirit. Can you put money in the bank today and be fairly sure it'll be there in 10 years? Yes. Can you spend a day in Dublin with your engagement ring on and expect to still have it at the end of the day? Yes. Can you do a week's work and be fairly sure you'll be paid the agreed amount at the end of the week? Yes. That's the shit I'm talking about, not whether or not farmers have it hard

Right.
Ireland is a safe place to live (if you are European). You will not be left high and dry by the govt, you will be educated and given ok health care even if you are poor. You will have a reasonably civilised life available to you if you put any effort in at all.

The US is not like this.
Absolutely fundamentally not like this. There really is no safety net out here. Life is good, or fucking awful. Inconceivably awful from an Irish standpoint.

 

[broken arm]

The only gripe I have with the immigration policy is that a lot of the people coming over are from stable, if economically not to hot countrys, whom it would probably be better if they stayed to help build their own economy rather then come here and clean our McBurger shops... But is it our job to stop them, or their home nations jobs to encourage them to stay?

this is such an important point. globalisation has many issues

 

[RSJ]

I think the biggest problem with immigrants is it gives The Crazies something to get hysterical about.

Aye, i think it's brought out the racism angle in a lot of people who're just plain begrudgers. Rather than "that prick down the road thinks he's better than me" it's "that nigger/polack down the road".

Anyways, i have no problem with people coming in from poorer countries to work, but at some point we have to say "right, that's enough". I'm not saying we're anywhere near that point, but maybe if our job market becomes over saturated with cheap labour (particularly where employers are using highly qualified workers for minimum wage, as happened in my last job) or if significant portions of people's wages are leaving the country (again, doubt it's happening in any decent amount yet), i'd say it's something that should be looked at. This whole thing of "but they'll steal your wedding ring and you won't get your wages at the end of the week"... I really don't get what you're saying egg.

 

[Squiggle]

Right.
Ireland is a safe place to live (if you are European). You will not be left high and dry by the govt, you will be educated and given ok health care even if you are poor. You will have a reasonably civilised life available to you if you put any effort in at all.

The US is not like this.
Absolutely fundamentally not like this. There really is no safety net out here. Life is good, or fucking awful. Inconceivably awful from an Irish standpoint.

Both of my brothers live in Thailand and it is the same for them there, there is no safety net, and in some ways it is worse as they can never own their own home or purchase a business. They are both working as teachers earning Thai (rather than western) level salaries.

Agreed, that we have it good compared to other countries, but the question Egg_ seems to be asking here is whether immigrants coming into Ireland will somehow 'damage' our society.

 

[Pantone247]

this is such an important point. globalisation has many issues

aye, it's a total headfuck isn't it

 

[egg_]

Are you saying that immigrants are going to steal my engagement ring - if I had one, or prevent me from being paid for working (and, I have been stiffed for wages by a number of Irish employers over the years), and do you think that they are going to steal my money from the bank (the bank will see to that all by themselves )

No
Like I said earlier - if there are enough people here who don't subscribe to the shit we take for granted, then maybe we won't have that shit anymore.

Maybe we'd need zillions more immigrants than we have for this to become an issue, but maybe someday we will have zillions more immigrants. Lefties (like myself) always argue that immigration is a positive thing, but it might not always be, and what then?

The internal functioning of a refugee camp may be more socially like what you are looking for than the way they are in parts of ireland - if you know what I mean???

Hehe, well maybe. Refugee camp = anarchist utopia?

 

[pete]

There's 6 spanish women down the back of the bus and THEY WON'T SHUT THE FUCK UP SHOUTTALKING AT EACH OTHER.

Immigration is bad.

 

[egg_]

Agreed, that we have it good compared to other countries, but the question Egg_ seems to be asking here is whether immigrants coming into Ireland will somehow 'damage' our society.

Well, kinda. The main thrust of what I'm saying is this - I think we need to acknowledge that it may be possible that immigration won't always be a good thing for us, and think about how to recognise when it goes from being something that enriches us to something that does the opposite, and what to do about that if it happens.

Immigrants 'damaging our society' is just one situation I can imagine where immigration would no longer be a force for good. Hey, maybe what I'm describing is ridiculous, but I don't really think so.

 

[Corey]

Polish women are very pretty.

Immigration is good.

 

[Unclealo]

Some of my thoughts...

Alot of people I meet from other countries working here are nice. Some (like my jerk neighbours) are not so nice. You can't generalise about anyone.

People get mugged/beaten up in more countries than Ireland.

Some of the current crop of migrant workers here will leave when our economy takes an imminent nosedive.

I personally believe that everyone has it in there nature to be ignorant and threatened by outsiders of any description. To move large numbers of people of different cultures to a different place is always going to cause problems. This is human nature (unfortunately)


I believe that problems with integration of immigrants to our larger "community" is indicative of overall community breakdown. Depends where you live though I guess...

 

[pete]

Polish women are very pretty.

Immigration is good.

They're also rampant catholics.

Immigration is bad.

 

[Willie Willions]

The country may be changing and become something different... but change is the only constant.

Actually the speed of light is the only constant.























Actually the speed of light isn't constant. We're all fucked!

 

[MDR]

My random thoughts:

My two favourite reference points in life are music and football so I don't really see nationality as being a barrier to cultural diversity and i don't believe that a national culture exists.

I think it's inconsistent to accept the free movement of capital (something like €200 billion to ireland last year folks) and reject the free movement of labour.

We need some (proper) system for economic migrants and for naturalisation (i.e. they get a passport after a while) of long-time residents.

Don't be an asshole is good advice whether your an immigrant or not; people just think that they are more entitled to have a go at assholes who are immigrants. Although whether immigrants are nice people or not is kind of beside the point.

PS: no hate-filed responses please. I don't care what you think. (Addressed to everyone.)

 

[Squiggle]

Actually the speed of light is the only constant.
Actually the speed of light isn't constant. We're all fucked!

Yep, it seems that even the speed of light is subject to change.

Good thoughts there Ro, and it also seems that Irish people think it is ok to be an asshole to immigrants, even people who would not dream of behaving in a similar way to other Irish people.