Is Kevin Myers racist? (1 Viewer)

[jane]

here we go-

http://www.trebuchet.com/

"The Atomic Bomb of the Middle Ages"

I like that a lot.

Are you linking to foreign websites?

FOR SHAME.

 

[Moods For Mallards]

Means he won't be allowed watch the History or Discovery channels, nor will he be allowed to read war memoirs. He'll be stuck with Fair City and a stack of self-published diaries from The Emergency.

No he will - that's all Western. Kev doesn't like things that aren's Western, that's all. His is a massive church. The golfing world is ay-okay.

The only addition I'd make to this (I am in favour of freedom of movement) is that I don't think that repressive religious practices should be encouraged under the flag of integration, and equally that we should not continue to tolerate the entrenched Catholic influece in our state institutions. This was shown up very well during the 'Guy wants to wear turban in the Gards' furore - the Gards spokesman was very protective of the impartiality of the uniform on Prime Time, but he was lost for words when ashes and crosses were brought up.

 

[jane]

No he will - that's all Western. Kev doesn't like things that aren's Western, that's all. His is a massive church. The golfing world is ay-okay.

The only addition I'd make to this (I am in favour of freedom of movement) is that I don't think that repressive religious practices should be encouraged under the flag of integration, and equally that we should not continue to tolerate the entrenched Catholic influece in our state institutions. This was shown up very well during the 'Guy wants to wear turban in the Gards' furore - the Gards spokesman was very protective of the impartiality of the uniform on Prime Time, but he was lost for words when ashes and crosses were brought up.

See, I think this is one of those issues that CAN be debated, because people weren't afraid to point out that if 'we' want 'them' to follow a particular rule, then 'we' have to give stuff up as well. Unfortunately, while I'm sure these things were discussed in the Sikh community, those voices weren't heard as often as they should have been. I honestly think these are the kinds of issues that, while they can and should be debated, there should be a real focus on prioritising the debates within the relevant communities.

Real integration comes when the needs of all communities are taken into account, not when the white people are satisfied that the brown people are following enough white people rules to be allowed to stay. That said, I think people did come out of the turban debate having learned something. Because it was someting that made everyone look at the us/them divide at least a little it, and that's very useful.

 

[david jatt]

I think language like this is why it's difficult for discussions of immigration not to lapse into rhetoric.


at the very least quote me fully. I was referring to a situation that smacked of opportunism, expoitation and choreography on the part of the Afghans in that situation and Residence against racism. I am very open to being proved wrong but I think my view is healthily cynical and even handed rather then precipitating a lapse into rhetoric.

 

[Scientician 0.8]

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[jane]

I think language like this is why it's difficult for discussions of immigration not to lapse into rhetoric.


at the very least quote me fully. I was referring to a situation that smacked of opportunism, expoitation and choreography on the part of the Afghans in that situation and Residence against racism. I am very open to being proved wrong but I think my view is healthily cynical and even handed rather then precipitating a lapse into rhetoric.

I was trying to highlight the words you used that sound a lot like unhelpful rhetoric.

What you are calling 'healthily cynical' sounds to me like suspicion of foreigners, otherwise known as xenophobia.

Many people are debating immigration issues, but they must be debated on reality, and with human rights and people's self-determination at the forefront, not just humans as economic units for the good of the national economy. The idea that we 'can't' debate immigration is ignoring the very many people who do deal with it and engage with it every day. And a real, productive debate about the key issues means it's not just Irish people debating. Or just white people. What isn't being debated that you want debated?

And by the way, they weren't trying to 'desecrate' a Christian place of worship, they were availing of the ancient right of sanctuary, which they felt was the only course of action they had. In other words, the language you chose to describe their actions was based on an assumption, something other than reality. I agree that whether or not the men were Taliban, it could have raised the issue of who does and doesn't deserve protection (because it could be reasonably argued that the western-installed Taliban may be under threat of persecution, and where we draw those lines), but it didn't. And even if it did, would Afghani voices have been heard in that debate, or would it be the same old middle aged white Irish people+Kevin Myers using rhetorical code words instead of doing their homework and looking at policies and how they are applied?

I'm curious about your use of 'opportunism'? 'Choreography'? What do you mean by that?

 

[hugh]

Really? Do you remember who brought him over?

(Mugabe this is): Not really. But it wasn't one of those student debating society "let's invite someone everyone hates so we can be all controversial and invoke yet another pointless argument about freedom of speech" deals. It was an official college function, with the president (Paddy Masterson?) in attendance, lots of staff invited etc. It was pretty galling because while he was by no means the bete noire of the west back then as he is now, anyone with even a passing knowledge of what goes on in Southern Africa knew he was deeply questionable - massacres in Matebeleland etc etc.

 

[jane]

(Mugabe this is): Not really. But it wasn't one of those student debating society "let's invite someone everyone hates so we can be all controversial and invoke yet another pointless argument about freedom of speech" deals. It was an official college function, with the president (Paddy Masterson?) in attendance, lots of staff invited etc. It was pretty galling because while he was by no means the bete noire of the west back then as he is now, anyone with even a passing knowledge of what goes on in Southern Africa knew he was deeply questionable - massacres in Matebeleland etc etc.

Christ, that's freaky. I wonder about some of these 'dignitaries' that get brought over and celebrated and treated like rock stars, who are clearly not as squeaky clean as they are treated. It's a difficult diplomatic situation, whether or not the person's less-than-spotless record is acknowledged.

Sounds like it'd have been better to bring, I dunno, some other Zimbabwean to talk about Zimbabwe, rather than someone who wasn't exactly going to be challenging or critical or open. Universities tend to go for celebrity over substance and that's quite scary.

I went to one college function with lots of 'big wigs' a few years ago, and while the dude was absolutely nowhere near the evil of Mugabe, he was a wee bit dodgy and didn't speak very highly of the 'peasants' in his own country. He outlined a plan for keeping them away from archaeological sites, in fact, so that they wouldn't bother the foreigners, whom he considered preferable. People were cheering him, and it was not permitted to criticise the guy to his face. There was some reception afterward with poshos and wannabe bigshots, and I just fucking skipped it because I realised that I'd end up creating a diplomatic crisis if I went and had a few glasses of wine. Despicable human being greeted with absolutely uncritical praise and arselicking, so it doesn't surprise me that Mugabe was greeted with deference and celebration.

 

[hugh]

Actually now that I think of it, it was actually televised because I remember watching his speech. A student in the audience called him up on his attitude towards gays I think and she got pretty short shrift .... (shrift .. is that the right word? Shift? .. I dunno .. it was short anyway)

Christ, that's freaky. I wonder about some of these 'dignitaries' that get brought over and celebrated and treated like rock stars, who are clearly not as squeaky clean as they are treated. It's a difficult diplomatic situation, whether or not the person's less-than-spotless record is acknowledged.

Sounds like it'd have been better to bring, I dunno, some other Zimbabwean to talk about Zimbabwe, rather than someone who wasn't exactly going to be challenging or critical or open. Universities tend to go for celebrity over substance and that's quite scary.

I went to one college function with lots of 'big wigs' a few years ago, and while the dude was absolutely nowhere near the evil of Mugabe, he was a wee bit dodgy and didn't speak very highly of the 'peasants' in his own country. He outlined a plan for keeping them away from archaeological sites, in fact, so that they wouldn't bother the foreigners, whom he considered preferable. People were cheering him, and it was not permitted to criticise the guy to his face. There was some reception afterward with poshos and wannabe bigshots, and I just fucking skipped it because I realised that I'd end up creating a diplomatic crisis if I went and had a few glasses of wine. Despicable human being greeted with absolutely uncritical praise and arselicking, so it doesn't surprise me that Mugabe was greeted with deference and celebration.

 

[jane]

Actually now that I think of it, it was actually televised because I remember watching his speech. A student in the audience called him up on his attitude towards gays I think and she got pretty short shrift .... (shrift .. is that the right word? Shift? .. I dunno .. it was short anyway)

Wow. I wonder where the archive footage of this is. Would be very interesting to watch.

(I think it's 'shrift', yah)

 

[Shorty]

Eh, okay, have to admit that I didn't see the late late show but I do live near Balbriggan and my mother is from there. But isn't one of the problems either the governments inability or unwillingness to actually create a secular education system. The level of control comparative to size of the catholic church over the education system in this country is still incredibly surprising to me. The problem in Balbriggan amongst other places in Ireland at the start of september was the need for multidenominational schools as the catholic primaries refusal to take any school children of other faiths. The fact that these happened to be mainly black just means that it was 'visible' so to speak as a problem and thus what gave Kevin Myers the chance to have his racist rant and conflate the issue. Missing the wood for the trees perhaps and slightly hypocritical with all his talk of vails, etc. All of this relates to the discussion on "integration" and seems to me it's us who also need to be doing a bit of give.

http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,,2176451,00.html

One of the other problems with Balbriggan is that it has fuck all amenities, the town has literally exploded in the last 10 or so years with the main thing built being housing estates and nothing else. I need to check this out but I also think even basic sewage treatment currently isn't enough in the area.
It's almost exected of people there that if you want to do something you have to fuck off to Dublin. And with the opening of Bremore as a port facility Balbriggan is expected to grow to 30,000.

 

[jane]

Eh, okay, have to admit that I didn't see the late late show but I do live near Balbriggan and my mother is from there. But isn't one of the problems either the governments inability or unwillingness to actually create a secular education system. The level of control comparative to size of the catholic church over the education system in this country is still incredibly surprising to me. The problem in Balbriggan amongst other places in Ireland at the start of september was the need for multidenominational schools as the catholic primaries refusal to take any school children of other faiths. The fact that these happened to be mainly black just means that it was 'visible' so to speak as a problem and thus what gave Kevin Myers the chance to have his racist rant and conflate the issue. Missing the wood for the trees perhaps and slightly hypocritical with all his talk of vails, etc. All of this relates to the discussion on "integration" and seems to me it's us who also need to be doing a bit of give.

One of the other problems with Balbriggan is that it has fuck all amenities, the town has literally exploded in the last 10 or so years with the main thing built being housing estates and nothing else. I need to check this out but I also think even basic sewage treatment currently isn't enough in the area.
It's almost exected of people there that if you want to do something you have to fuck off to Dublin. And with the opening of Bremore as a port facility Balbriggan is expected to grow to 30,000.

I think one thing to point out, though, is that apart from Kevin Myers and a few others, a lot of people did seem to recognise that it wasn't the 'immigrants' it was all a reflection of how the church control of the education system can harm communities, and that Balbriggan, like a lot of places, just doesn't have amenities, full stop.

That's a really good point, though, that a lot of these things labelled 'immigration' issues are actually down to poor infrastructure and poor planning in general, it's just that these are more visible examples of it. The lists for social housing were always way too long (and without immigrant labour to build more houses, they'd be even longer), and the health service was always a mess, and etc etc. Yet the 'immigrants' get the blame for putting strain on the system, when it seems to be more a matter that the existence of people who look different make existing problems less easy to ignore.

The best thing for integration, I think, is to look at it under the rubric of a huge range of types of integration. There's rural-to-urban, vice versa, there's integrating the 'exurb' into the surrounding area by providing amenities and acknowledging the landscape, there's movement of people to the 'commuter belt' and establishments of new towns, and there's movement of people from outside IReland to Ireland, and there's the return of Irish people who previously emigrated. If all of these were taken together, then perhaps it would result in real integration. But the more the issues are compartmentalised, the worse things are gonna get.

EDIT: Also, I didn't watch Myers rant either, and I really don't want to. I saw his column about it, and heard him on the radio, and that was enough. But it's here if you want to torment yourself: http://www.rte.ie/tv/latelate/

 

[therealjohnny]

If all Nazis are as cute as this then I say let's hear them out at least

 

[JohnnyRaz]

If all Nazis are as cute as this then I say let's hear them out at least

Id annex her enclave!
she could play with my panzer!
etc ect...

 

[cephalopod]

Id annex her enclave!
she could play with my panzer!
etc ect...

My mickey needs some lebensraum

 

[jane]

My mickey needs some lebensraum

Ah, you know you'd take her up the maginot line.

 

[JohnnyRaz]

Ah, you know you'd take her up the maginot line.

she could kill my jews!......eh.....never mind

 

[Unicron]

Ah, you know you'd take her up the maginot line.

Are you advocating opening up a second front and going at her from the other side?

 

[cephalopod]

Like the V2 I'd be on top of her before she even hears me.

 

[JohnnyRaz]

Like the V2 I'd be on top of her before she even hears me.

Like the bliztkreig id be finsihed before she knew what was going on.