Ireland versus Archduke Franz Ferdinand (2 Viewers)

[Hector Grey]

Anyway..tactics, and tactical innovation are one thing, but we've played with more heart in the past. Trap's clear disdain for the whole set up didn't help. O'Neill might instill of that. You know, three lions, lionheart, what ever the Irish equivalent is...lepruchaun hearted.. shamrocking..whatever. I don't mind long ball, i don't mind losing, i just want to see them give it a go. Remember Paris?

I'm saying that cos it looks like O'Neill, rather than Helino Herrera, is gonna take over.

 

[oh shit]

Hm. I wonder. If only for the sake of comparison, I wish there were a nearby country we could compare to... a country which recently replaced a surly, elderly, emotionally distant yet well decorated Juve coach with a home grown gaffer who knows the culture, etc.

 

[Luther Blissett]

Anyway..tactics, and tactical innovation are one thing, but we've played with more heart in the past. Trap's clear disdain for the whole set up didn't help. O'Neill might instill of that. You know, three lions, lionheart, what ever the Irish equivalent is...lepruchaun hearted.. shamrocking..whatever. I don't mind long ball, i don't mind losing, i just want to see them give it a go. Remember Paris?

I'm saying that cos it looks like O'Neill, rather than Helino Herrera, is gonna take over.

Ireland played really well in the two games against Italy back in 2009 too and should have won them both. I don't want to be too revisionist about Trap's reign, but I thought he did a really good job in the first qualifying campaign, but things were never really right after that notwithstanding qualification for the Euros.

I remember the away game in Montenegro back in 2008 giving me great hope for the future. Steven Reid was in central midfield and looked like he was about to blossom into a key figure for the team. But his injury problems put paid to that possibility.

I'm not saying that Reid's injury changed the course of irish footballing history, but Trap might have been able to build a team around him but instead we were left with Whelan, Andrews, Rowlands, and later Green as the midfield options.

 

[Hector Grey]

When Trap came, his first job was to put some order on the mess that preceded. Stan was a nightmare, a total disaster. It was clueless and embarrassing, so to improve on that didn't take a genius. THat italy game in Bari, trap made a substitution 20 minutes in. He was all over shit then. But he was never a long term solution. He should have left earlier, and with the ship steadied, as it were, a new face would come in. I though Brady was being groomed. After that we went backwards. Alarmingly quickly. And the thing was, Trap didn't give a shit. Having to tell him he had to watch his players play occasionally to justify his massive wages sort of summed it up.

 

[Cormcolash]

So are we putting washingcattle in charge or what?

 

[Cormcolash]

We should have a big FootballManager tournament and whoever wins gets the job. Or a ProEvo tournament.

 

[CinnamonBoy]

I'm not saying that Reid's injury changed the course of irish footballing history, but Trap might have been able to build a team around him but instead we were left with Whelan, Andrews, Rowlands, and later Green as the midfield options.

Reid getting injured is one of the saddest episodes of the whole Trap reign. He was immense against Black Mountain.


Just on all the talk about grassroots. I looked up a 2007 U-19 Euro elite qualifier match that I was at where we played Germany. I googled almost every German player. Of them, only Boateng has done anything with the senior team. Some other lad has 14 caps (by age 25), the rest never featured at all. So it's not just us. Elite Performance Plans and 10 Year Blueprints are all well and good (and I appreciate it's worked for Belgium) but sometimes you just need a bit of luck and a crop of young lads to all come along at once, fully formed.

 

[oh shit]

Interesting comments

Just on all the talk about grassroots. I looked up a 2007 U-19 Euro elite qualifier match that I was at where we played Germany. I googled almost every German player. Of them, only Boateng has done anything with the senior team. Some other lad has 14 caps (by age 25), the rest never featured at all. So it's not just us. Elite Performance Plans and 10 Year Blueprints are all well and good (and I appreciate it's worked for Belgium) but sometimes you just need a bit of luck and a crop of young lads to all come along at once, fully formed.

The evidence you quoted in no way supports the conclusion you've drawn. At most, it's just more evidence that the key period of a pro player's development is 17-21, which is exactly what's lacking in British and Irish set ups. This idea that with a bit of luck god will give us a great bunch of lads is pernicious nonsense.

 

[Unicron]

yeah it'd be great if kids werent so steeped in the media blitz of the premier league, fifa and all that shit and and actually concentrated on GAA.

You've entirely missed my point, twice.

I'm not saying that it's bad that kids play GAA, hurling and rugby, it's great that kids play any sport and they should be free to pick whatever sport or sports they choose.

What I'm saying is that we've go a limited population pool here and leaving coaching issues aside it's entirely unreasonable to look at similar sized nations and expect us to perform to the same standard as them when their kids pretty much only play football and we have kids chosing to go and play other (shitter, I think, but y'know that's just me) sports.

I made the same point about England and the notion that they "underacchieve", huge sections of kids in England choose to play other sports, so while people in England say "we've got 55 million people we should be doing better" effectively they're not a footballing nation of 55 million.

 

[CinnamonBoy]

Interesting comments


The evidence you quoted in no way supports the conclusion you've drawn. At most, it's just more evidence that the key period of a pro player's development is 17-21, which is exactly what's lacking in British and Irish set ups. This idea that with a bit of luck god will give us a great bunch of lads is pernicious nonsense.

Well, I wasn't really trying to prove anything or make any conclusions. Just pointing out that sometimes through sheer blind luck you get a Duffer or a Roy or Robbie Keane and they're already brilliant and hardly need coaching.

Is 17-21 the key development period? Probably. I'm not a football coach, I don't profess to know much about player development so I only go on observations. David Amoo scored for fun for Liverpool reserves and now plays for Carlisle. Conor Clifford captained Chelsea to the FA Youth Cup and spent the summer scratching around for a club. I don't know is there ever an exact science to these things. It's a funny old game, is about the best offering I can make to you.

 

[Unicron]

Well, I wasn't really trying to prove anything or make any conclusions. Just pointing out that sometimes through sheer blind luck you get a Duffer or a Roy or Robbie Keane and they're already brilliant and hardly need coaching.

Is 17-21 the key development period? Probably. I'm not a football coach, I don't profess to know much about player development so I only go on observations. David Amoo scored for fun for Liverpool reserves and now plays for Carlisle. Conor Clifford captained Chelsea to the FA Youth Cup and spent the summer scratching around for a club. I don't know is there ever an exact science to these things. It's a funny old game, is about the best offering I can make to you.

Isn't the sad fact of the matter that the function of 90+% of youth footballers is to give the small few who actually make it someone to play with and against until they're ready for the seniors? It's all well and good being the best u-17 striker at Arsenal or Chelsea or where ever but there's one of those every year, and to make it you have to be as good as or better than 15 years worth of players being the best u-17 striker at your club.

 

[oh shit]

Well, I wasn't really trying to prove anything or make any conclusions. Just pointing out that sometimes through sheer blind luck you get a Duffer or a Roy or Robbie Keane and they're already brilliant and hardly need coaching.

Is 17-21 the key development period? Probably. I'm not a football coach, I don't profess to know much about player development so I only go on observations. David Amoo scored for fun for Liverpool reserves and now plays for Carlisle. Conor Clifford captained Chelsea to the FA Youth Cup and spent the summer scratching around for a club. I don't know is there ever an exact science to these things. It's a funny old game, is about the best offering I can make to you.

Generally that's the period in which a good prospect becomes a good player. In Spain and Germany players at that age are usually playing in feeder teams in the lower divisions. Here they're either on the bench, but getting paid millions and told they've made it, or sent on loan to play in some fairly agricultural sides.

So like I was saying earlier, if you're the parent of a good kid who's 16 and he's either going to take a punt on the small chance of a successful career in football, or sit his exams and go on to become a GP or whatever, what are you going to do?

That's the stuff I'd focus on. Create (and, if necessary, enforce) a properly supportive system in which those players are kept on traineeships, required to get some education or qualifications on the way, and given a competitive role in a feeder team that follows the same footballing ethos as the main club/national team, and bob's yr uncle.

There, stick me in charge.

 

[washingcattle]

We need to sort out grass roots level football, no question, but lets not forget that what's happening to English football is happening to Irish ( and scottish) footy. The Brits complain that young English lads aren't getting a shot in the Premier League cos of expensive and inexpensive foreign imports. Well, what chance do our boys have? HOw often are we hearing about some whizzkid at some premier team who we end up seeing plaing for Plymouth five years later. Remember the time Ireland's U-19 were winning shit. Not many of them made it. We need a bigger league, a place where youngfellas can learn their trade to a point where they might be bought by a Prem team. It's happened before.

We don't have the population to support a bigger league, teams aren't surviving on their gate receipts as it is.

For me we need to is to encourage lads to go further afield to learn their trade. I'm not sure how that's done but what we need is to get stronger ties with feeder teams in the major european leagues. Something like Home Farm Everton but more like Bohemians Chievo or the likes. When I was posting earlier about the Bayern academy and the general academy set up in Germany it's not surprising that nearly every player you see speaks English perfectly, Imagine if football academies here and in England went "Okay for the good of your career it's for the best that you get a course in a european language" learning one now means that it'll be easier for you further down the line should you have to move abroad for your career and have to learn the local language somewhere else"

There'd be uproar, The Sun would have headlines like "Academy trains young boys to be immigrants"

Nearly all English and Irish players play their whole career with one regime and it limits them in terms of footballing culture and culture as a whole frankly. I mean you don't hear of many Germans or Italians raping teenagers.

Generally that's the period in which a good prospect becomes a good player. In Spain and Germany players at that age are usually playing in feeder teams in the lower divisions. Here they're either on the bench, but getting paid millions and told they've made it, or sent on loan to play in some fairly agricultural sides.

So like I was saying earlier, if you're the parent of a good kid who's 16 and he's either going to take a punt on the small chance of a successful career in football, or sit his exams and go on to become a GP or whatever, what are you going to do?

That's the stuff I'd focus on. Create (and, if necessary, enforce) a properly supportive system in which those players are kept on traineeships, required to get some education or qualifications on the way, and given a competitive role in a feeder team that follows the same footballing ethos as the main club/national team, and bob's yr uncle.

There, stick me in charge.

Agreed. With the millions football makes it often seems that the clubs are more than happy to put their names on a hospital visit for kids but then pass most of their own kids off into the wilderness with attitude problems and a sense of failure which is not healthy at 17.

 

[CinnamonBoy]

Generally that's the period in which a good prospect becomes a good player. In Spain and Germany players at that age are usually playing in feeder teams in the lower divisions. Here they're either on the bench, but getting paid millions and told they've made it, or sent on loan to play in some fairly agricultural sides.

So like I was saying earlier, if you're the parent of a good kid who's 16 and he's either going to take a punt on the small chance of a successful career in football, or sit his exams and go on to become a GP or whatever, what are you going to do?

That's the stuff I'd focus on. Create (and, if necessary, enforce) a properly supportive system in which those players are kept on traineeships, required to get some education or qualifications on the way, and given a competitive role in a feeder team that follows the same footballing ethos as the main club/national team, and bob's yr uncle.

There, stick me in charge.

Jake Carroll signed with Huddersfield from Pats during the summer after just 1 proper season in the LOI as he wanted to finish his degree. He's already made the first team and is a decent prospect even if he is 22. So that route is always open for someone good enough.

And as for your "This idea that with a bit of luck god will give us a great bunch of lads is pernicious nonsense." I literally just found a link to this article over on foot.ie
http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/espnfcunited/id/9376?cc=5739

So at least I'm not alone in thinking that the Almighty plays a larger role than He is given credit for. A bit like Claude Makelele with a large white beard.

 

[oh shit]

No, the route is not always open. Carroll is a rare exception, not proof that anyone can do it. And no harm to him, but Huddersfield aren't in danger of winning the Champions League any time soon. Compare to Alonso, Kompany, and any number of educated european players.

As for the link to Rory Smith's blog (who he?) it's just a contra-factual opinion that he probably came up with at that morning's editorial meeting in order to offer a 'different viewpoint' to the one offered by every analyst working with difficult things, like statistics and facts.

He hasn't even bothered getting any evidence to back up what he says - and at one point holds up the English 'golden generation' as an example of a crop of world class players, which they aren't, which is part of why this conversation is taking place.

 

[washingcattle]

Jake Carroll signed with Huddersfield from Pats during the summer after just 1 proper season in the LOI as he wanted to finish his degree. He's already made the first team and is a decent prospect even if he is 22. So that route is always open for someone good enough.

And as for your "This idea that with a bit of luck god will give us a great bunch of lads is pernicious nonsense." I literally just found a link to this article over on foot.ie
http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/espnfcunited/id/9376?cc=5739

So at least I'm not alone in thinking that the Almighty plays a larger role than He is given credit for. A bit like Claude Makelele with a large white beard.

That's "Golden" Generations. This lad seems to be missing the point completely. The point is to keep the standard high at all times and give the young lads a start in the game. One of the things in there is that the new crop of Barcelona youth aren't as good as Ineasta, or Xavi but that's not the point at all the young lads coming out of La Masia are definitely good enough to have careers in football if that's what they want.

Spain, Germany, Italy, France have the most professional coaches working with youth teams and between them and they've never had a bad national side. And it's not just the giants either Belgium and Switzerland are the same, then there's Holland and Portugal who regularly over achieve.

 

[CinnamonBoy]

I didn't even read it, to be honest. I just agreed with the headline. Brian Clough was impressing passersby in his local park as a 3-year old. That video of Messi when he was 5.
The newspapers would have you believe English coaching etc is in the dark ages but they've produced Rio, Ashley, Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes and lots more in the last while. All fantastic players. Aston Villa won the U-19 youth version of the Champions League a few months ago.

Anyway, there's plenty of nonsense on this thread. Home Farm Chievo.....didn't two Irish youngsters go off to Italy a few years back? I think they're both in the LOI now. Padraig Amond went off to Portugal or somewhere. He plays for Accrington. What does that prove? I don't know. I'm just musing. You lot seem to have concrete solutions. I don't think there is such a thing. Get kids out playing football again. Coach them well, to play the game the right way. Mentor them. And wish them luck in their physical and mental development. It appears they need that most of all.

 

[CinnamonBoy]

Spain, Germany, Italy, France have the most professional coaches working with youth teams and between them and they've never had a bad national side..

Does Ireland have a lack of good coaches? And if so, why is it not being railed against. What does Ruud Dokter get paid to do?

All those countries you've listed above, btw, have had (in relative terms) bad or ugly national sides at times.

 

[oh shit]

Anyway, there's plenty of nonsense on this thread.

most of it from you mate

 

[CinnamonBoy]

most of it from you mate

I respectfully disagree. And anyway, I'm just trying to debate a few things and make some observations.

I love all these people who come on football forums in these situations and layout their failsafe blueprint for success.