Ireland versus Archduke Franz Ferdinand (3 Viewers)

[Jerry Twig]

We need a plan for the next 10-15 years not just for the next qualifying campaign. It has to start at grass roots. Instead of pumping money into getting a manager who demands big wages we should pump the cash into youth development and into getting the stablising the LOI.

I agree with you in principle, but (1) half the cash before was Denis O'Briens. There is no cash to pump and (2) the LOI only came under the control of the FAI in 2006, and still has its own separate governance structure (point being you actually can't blame the FAI and the league needs to sort most of that shit). The FAI need to be prioritising putting money into youth development, of course, but that doesn't have to come at the cost of a good senior manager who can make the most of what we have. I don't support this either/or mentality (not you, but you do hear it)

 

[Jerry Twig]

Ok, so it turns out O'Brien will be funneling his bent millions into the next manager too (keeping whatever we make of that separate) so as that's money for a manager, use it and get someone good who'll also support grassroots development in Ireland, no?

 

[washingcattle]

I agree with you in principle, but (1) half the cash before was Denis O'Briens. There is no cash to pump and (2) the LOI only came under the control of the FAI in 2006, and still has its own separate governance structure (point being you actually can't blame the FAI and the league needs to sort most of that shit). The FAI need to be prioritising putting money into youth development, of course, but that doesn't have to come at the cost of a good senior manager who can make the most of what we have. I don't support this either/or mentality (not you, but you do hear it)

The senior manager is irrelivent because we simply don't have the players. Who would genuinely make it into a major tournament squad of any other country based on what we've seen of them at club and international level ? Coleman yes, Dunne and Keane of 5 years ago and that's it.

Hoolihan, Pilkington, McClean, McCarthy haven't exactly set the world on fire for their clubs.

The defence is awful.

Then there's Paul Green and Connor Sammon ? C'mon it's a lost cause with that standard of player.

Robbie Brady shows some promise fair enough but the talent is simply not there.

Trawling the ranks of the English league for a granny somewhere in the family isn't going to work either because, as I said before the English league is in sharp decline. You're looking at players playing in a league where teams like Arsenal and Swasea are the exception because they pass it. It's not good enough for these tournaments. Watch Italy Vs England in the Euros every Italian players basics, first touch and passing over 15-20 yards was superior to England. It's the fundamentals that are wrong it's nothing to do with money or even with talent.

Pirlo plays a ball 60 yards across the pitch and it looks great because whoever he plays it to will have it under control after one touch, how often do you see Steven Gerrard do the same thing and ....ooops it slides under someones foot, or he controls it in such a way that the ball ends up at head height ? It's the basics.

The way we support football in this country is the same way as we support GAA. Get stuck in and win ugly. The only huge difference between GAA now and 30 years ago is that the players are fitter but the technique has not nearly as advanced as Football has in that same time period in every part of the world except here.

Do you think there are 15 fathers on the sidelines of a youth team match in Italy or Spain screaming "Pull on it!!!" because there fucking aren't.

We all love football. When I got home last night I watched the second half of Uruguay vs Columbia on the internet because I love football. I'm watching Chicago vs fucking Toronto right now because I love football. I'd rather watch Ireland lose the right way than win by playing the way we have for the last 6 years. It's not even just the last 6 years we haven't had a footballing side since the mid 80s. Charlton created the blueprint for what we do now but the players he had at his disposal were vastly superior to what we have now.

The problem is that we over achieved and the fair weather bastards who know fuck all about football think our standard is ridiculously high. It's not and we need to get real.

We need to look at countries the same size as us, Uruguay or Bosnia see what they are doing and how their youth set ups work and learn from that. Bosnia are a perfect example of where we should be. They've no money, They've one big name and the rest ply there trade in mid table German, Belgian or Turkish sides, but the technical standard of mid table sides in Germany or Belgium or Turkey is obviously higher than the Championship or the lower end of the PL because how many top half sides in the PL sign players from those leagues rather than from the Championship ?


For now, get Mick McCarthy back on the cheap let him have a go at keeping the fair-weather fans happy with the usual kick and rush rubbish. But more importantly put a real team in place to get us playing the right way at under age level. Then when those players are ready to step up the manager steps up with them. The right way.

 

[Jerry Twig]

The senior manager is irrelevant because we simply don't have the players.

That post is too long, but I don't agree with your first point. Next Euros is expanded and we do have good enough players to qualify with a half-decent manager, so get one.
Playing good football, or at least a good fucking effort from the team, connects to the desire to play football properly at schoolboy level. You as much as said it yourself. Kick and run management is the wrong choice.

 

[washingcattle]

That post is too long, but I don't agree with your first point. Next Euros is expanded and we do have good enough players to qualify with a half-decent manager, so get one.
Playing good football, or at least a good fucking effort from the team, connects to the desire to play football properly at schoolboy level. You as much as said it yourself. Kick and run management is the wrong choice.

It's the only choice for what we have. They're not good enough and they play in a league where it's acceptable to play that way. Stoke, Hull, Norwich and the likes that's where these lads are playing. The right choice is to abandon them as soon as possible, they're not good enough.

 

[Jerry Twig]

Bullshit. The next competition is 24 places, we want a manager to get us there, that is doable with these players, and who can also build beyond that for the next WC.

 

[washingcattle]

Bullshit. The next competition is 24 places, we want a manager to get us there, that is doable with these players, and who can also build beyond that for the next WC.

Like I said already do we want someone to "get us there" just so we can lose 2 or 3 nil to everyone at the competition because our standards are so ridiculously low ? That's not a healthy thing for football in this country. That's what happens to Scotland at major tournaments and look how bad they've gotten.

The players aren't good enough, the tactics are primative, the set up is wrong and if we're not careful and don't make the hard decisions soon it will be harder and harder to fix.

Look there's always a surprise package at great tournaments.

Croatia 1996 - (4 players over 30 in that squad), Denmark 1992 - (4 players over 30), The Czech Republic 1996 (4 Players over 30), Turkey 2002 (5 players over 30) or South Korea 2002 (5 players over 30), Nigeria (2 players over 30), Uruguay 2010 (5 players over 30) , Belgium (who currently have 2 players over 30 in their squad).

No one in any of those countries is shocked to see them do well, If you have a young well organised technically good team who play good football it's no surprise. That's what we should be aiming to be in 5-10 years time rather than another disgraceful hammering in 2 years time.

In all likelyhood if we had qualified for the WC next year we'd have 9 players over 30 in the squad. You just can't teach those dogs new tricks.

In fact in studying the ages of surprise teams the only exception is The Greece in 2004 who had 11 players over 30 and won the fucking thing by playing the worst football ever played by any championship wining team in the existence of football. At least until Chelski did one worse two seasons ago.

Bunker ball is all most of these lads know, their clubs play it, Trap played it for his entire reign and it has to end. "Getting there" by playing this way doesn't matter a fuck to any of us who love football. Getting there and competing the right way has to be the priority and that will take a determined effort on the part of the FAI. It starts with youth. That simple.

 

[Jerry Twig]

I know it starts with youth, everyone knows that. No one is arguing that. The rest of your monologue that we shouldn't make any effort at the senior level, just give up, because you assume we'll have the same first team next year and in three years, and no manager can shape our best 11 to avoid a hockeying from teams say ranked 10-24 in Europe is just absolute fucking tripe, I'm sorry.
We are basically Sweden or Austria without one world class player. Talent-wise this team is on par with 2002 (Harte, Cunningham, Breen, Kelly, Kinsella, Holland, past it McAteer, past it Quinn) and we didn't get hockeyed then. That squad was older, by the way, but frankly that's neither here-nor-there. Squads mutate, there are players coming through, we are younger now than the Euros etc.
I know football has moved on, but not that much among the Sweden's and Austria's and Ireland's, and with the right motivation and picking the best team, we should still be qualifying, and in a larger Euros we'd do fine.

You want us to play like Uruguay in ten years, great, me too. But spare me this bullshit about 'those of us who love football' don't accept getting there? If you are so fucking purist about football why have you supported Everton for so long? Those of us who love supporting the Irish football team, and have followed them long enough and far enough to remember better and worse times than this, and who won't turn on the players cos they happen to play for Hull or Stoke, would place a value on 'getting there' with them, thank you very much.

 

[washingcattle]

I know it starts with youth, everyone knows that. No one is arguing that. The rest of your monologue that we shouldn't make any effort at the senior level, just give up, because you assume we'll have the same first team next year and in three years, and no manager can shape our best 11 to avoid a hockeying from teams say ranked 10-24 in Europe is just absolute fucking tripe, I'm sorry.
We are basically Sweden or Austria without one world class player. Talent-wise this team is on par with 2002 (Harte, Cunningham, Breen, Kelly, Kinsella, Holland, past it McAteer, past it Quinn) and we didn't get hockeyed then. That squad was older, by the way, but frankly that's neither here-nor-there. Squads mutate, there are players coming through, we are younger now than the Euros etc.
I know football has moved on, but not that much among the Sweden's and Austria's and Ireland's, and with the right motivation and picking the best team, we should still be qualifying, and in a larger Euros we'd do fine.

You want us to play like Uruguay in ten years, great, me too. But spare me this bullshit about 'those of us who love football' don't accept getting there? If you are so fucking purist about football why have you supported Everton for so long? Those of us who love supporting the Irish football team, and have followed them long enough and far enough to remember better and worse times than this, and who won't turn on the players cos they happen to play for Hull or Stoke, would place a value on 'getting there' with them, thank you very much.

Firstly I didn't say we shouldn't make an effort at senior level I said it shouldn't be the priority because we simply don't have the players.

Sweden or Austria will get beaten in the first round of the world cup if they somehow manage to get out of the playoffs.

You're leaving out Duff, Dunne, Finan, Robbie Keane and Given from that squad, plus Roy Keane was one of the major factors in qualification and he was one of the best midfielders in the world at the time.

I said those of us who love football don't accept "getting there" only to be exposed as piss poor, tactically primitive and technically inferior.

How can you even ask why I've supported Everton for so long ? You can't change your team, that's blasphemy. Besides which in the 24 years I've supported them we've always tried to play football to the highest standard we could with the resources we have at our disposal. It hasn't always been great but, when you support a club who doesn't win often you start to appreciate the game for the game. Which is why I try to watch about 5-6 games per weekend.

Lastly I can't remember anything worse than this, this is the lowest ebb in my memory. This is far and away the poorest squad and the worst manager.

I'm not turning on the players because they play for Stoke or Hull. I'm not turning on anyone I hate Stoke and I always have. I'm not turning on them I'm saying they aren't good enough. I don't dislike them, I'm not making death theats. We ended the Euros as the worst team to ever play at the finals ever. That's a fact.

We played the worst football to qualify that I have ever seen.

We have one player in our current squad that finished in the top half of the PL last season.

It's not good enough, the english league isn't good enough and we're being left behind.

 

[Jerry Twig]

OK, less hyperbole here and back to facts

You're leaving out Duff, Dunne, Finan, Robbie Keane and Given from that squad, plus Roy Keane was one of the major factors in qualification and he was one of the best midfielders in the world at the time.

I was talking about our first team in the WC (the rest of the squad is Clinton Morrison, Andy O'Brien and the like, so don;t even go there). Dunne didn't play in the WC, and at that time was no better then Clarke is now. Dunne, if you cast your mind back, was not rated at all for Ireland till years later. Finnan was at Fulham at the time and a tidy footballer, on a par I would say with Seamus Coleman. Keane was good but Duff was our only great player, and he was with Blackburn at the time. Not Premiership winning Blackburn, bottom half of the table Blackburn. He was 23, which is a year younger than Robbie Brady will be at the 2016 Euros. Who's to say Brady couldn't be at a better club than Hull or Blackburn, or not, and doing the business in 3 years for Ireland?

So, Harte, Cunningham, Breen (Staunton) Finnan or Wilson, Dunne, O'Shea (Clark), Coleman at the back. 2013 for me.

Kinsella, Holland or Gibson, McCarthy? 2013 for me. (Keane obviously).

31 year of McAteer of Sunderland on the right or 24/5 year old Pilkington/McClean (since you are hung up in age). 2013.

Knackered Quinn or Long? 50/50.

Duff, yong Keane and Given naturally.

Lastly I can't remember anything worse than this, this is the lowest ebb in my memory. This is far and away the poorest squad and the worst manager.

.

Ireland 2 - Cyprus 5.
San Marino 1 - Ireland 2, last minute winner from Ireland.
Ireland 1 - Cyprus 1.

Staunton was a worse manager. Does that really need to be argued?

 

[oh shit]

Has anyone ever looked into getting coaching badges? Thought about giving up your weekend mornings and afternoons and an evening or two a week to go coach a bunch of snotty 7 year old chimps? Thought about how fucking tedious it would be to go about disbanding all 11-aside junior leagues across the country and re-organise them to play 6 a-side games on compressed pitches for 55 minutes or whatever instead? Fuck that. Hoof and run. YOU'RE PLAYING FOR ROSARIO SON

 

[Unicron]

We need to look at countries the same size as us, Uruguay or Bosnia see what they are doing and how their youth set ups work and learn from that.

The thing you have to consider when talking about those countries is that football is the dominant sport there, we have a diluted pool of athletes due to GAA/Hurling/Rugby and while we actually have huge per capita participation rates for football the majority of them are your 5-aside astro dudes, many of the better sportspeople are doing other stuff.

It's a similar case with "underperforming" England. Notionally a nation of 55 million or whatever it is that loves the game should do better but participation wise football in England remains a working class pursuit, the middle and upper classes play rugby and cricket for the most part. Yes there are coaching and technique issues that's true, but they're not as "big" a footballing country as you might think.

 

[Unicron]

Has anyone ever looked into getting coaching badges?

Actually I have, I saw my local village team get beat 1-0 by Shels b team on St Stephen's day a couple of years ago and throughout it I was thinking, if I was managing I could get them to beat this lot.

I'm too beardy and childless and anti-social and single in my 30's for people to be comfortable letting me be in charge of their kids though.

 

[oh shit]

my uncle's a "soccer coach" in chicago, at high school level. in the 90s he was at a pretty well-off high school called st charles. they won everything. literally everything. i am not sure how well his teams are doing these days but when i last spoke to him there in May he just talked about it all as a business thing, like how him and others run a club during the weeks cos it's easy enough money, but actually the kids don't really give a fuck, they just do it for fun.

so yeah following from unicron's point about class in English football, that's a good point, and the implication is that a lot more needs to change than just technique, you need to make it so that football is
a) something that middle class parents would actually let their teenage sons give over 10+ hours per week to doing, and
b) something that doesn't exclude the kids who actually want to do their homework too.

In Europe this isn't a problem. Xabi Alonso is just one example I always recall of a great player who also managed to finish school and do a degree. that is unthinkable for kids in England. at 16, no matter how good your kid is, there are few bright players whose parents will let them drop out to take a punt. unless you're theo walcott, it's just not happening.

 

[CinnamonBoy]

I don't have many solutions but here's one off the top of my head:

You know all those patches of grass in housing estates and other places that have signs on them saying "BALL GAMES PROHIBITED"? They all need to be knocked down at once. That'd be a start.

Maybe "BALL GAMES MANDATORY" could replace them. 4 of them on each field so you can use them for goalposts.

Also, make those mini-nets that families put in their back gardens to let little johnny kick his ball in a safe environment illegal. Up the field and join in with the other kids in your neighbourhood if you want to play football. I grew up in a fairly affluent southside suburb and the kids would come down from Sallynoggin or over from Bellevue and Glenageary and there'd be a match going on until it got dark. I remember my dad grabbing me by the ear to get me home one night. I think I told him that he wasn't the boss of me or somesuch. (Turns out he was).

 

[washingcattle]

Ireland 2 - Cyprus 5.
San Marino 1 - Ireland 2, last minute winner from Ireland.
Ireland 1 - Cyprus 1.

Staunton was a worse manager. Does that really need to be argued?

Stan was worse but we still had better players during Stans stint in charge. That's why this is worse.

The thing you have to consider when talking about those countries is that football is the dominant sport there, we have a diluted pool of athletes due to GAA/Hurling/Rugby and while we actually have huge per capita participation rates for football the majority of them are your 5-aside astro dudes, many of the better sportspeople are doing other stuff.

It's a similar case with "underperforming" England. Notionally a nation of 55 million or whatever it is that loves the game should do better but participation wise football in England remains a working class pursuit, the middle and upper classes play rugby and cricket for the most part. Yes there are coaching and technique issues that's true, but they're not as "big" a footballing country as you might think.

Firstly 5 a side astro bullshit is fucking ruining football. It's horrible to play on the ball doesn't run properly and you can't really tackle. They should all be torn up and turned into actual football pitches. If everyones so concerned with all weather pitches etc put a roof over them or something. Horrible things I hate them

Secondly I don't believe that any of that classist demographic nonsense has any effect on the way we play football. Just because people play rugby doesn't mean that our footballers can't play a 15 yard pass accurately to each other control it turn and pass it forward. That's the problem though they can't even do that. England are as bad as we are they actually buy tiny spaniards because they're the only ones who seemingly do that very basic thing instinctively. That's the technique problem and that's down to coaching.

The point with Uruguay and Bosnia isn't how large their talent pool is the point is what they do with what they have.

 

[oh shit]

I think you've totally missed the point of the "classist demographic nonsense", ironic as you then say "the point with Uruguay and Bosnia isn't how large their talent pool is the point is what they do with what they have."

Why not stop and think about what you're saying means in practice.

 

[oh shit]

I mean listening to you, the answer to all this stuff is just so blindingly obvious, so pure and so simple, there is just no need to ask any difficult questions about what 'football culture' might actually mean. where have you been the last twenty years? FAI must call off the hunt today and give you the job, and hang the expense. It's just so obvious now that you've solved everything.

 

[washingcattle]

I mean listening to you, the answer to all this stuff is just so blindingly obvious, so pure and so simple, there is just no need to ask any difficult questions about what 'football culture' might actually mean. where have you been the last twenty years? FAI must call off the hunt today and give you the job, and hang the expense. It's just so obvious now that you've solved everything.

Cool, I'll do it.

Okay then what is football culture then enlighten me if i'm such a simpleton ?

 

[Richie]

Hughton and McDermott rule themselves out of the running:
http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/english/2013/0912/473839-mcdermott-rules-out-ireland-job/

Trap should have left 2 years ago and we got him well past his prime but he's almost certainly the highest profile manager Ireland will ever have, it's going to be a serious comedown when the list of candidates for the position emerges and it's the usual parade of lads who got somebody promoted from the Championship once and ex-players.

O'Neill would be a mistake I think, the Sunderland stint appeared to indicate that he's lost touch with modern football. You can't complain about the team not being able to retain possession and being reliant on long balls and go for somebody basically in the same template. We need a tactician, not a motivator. I agree with Washingcattle that the big money should be being funnelled into youth coaching, facilities, even improving League of Ireland grounds & prize money, but if Dennis O'Brien is the one splurging up the cash, we might as well use it. Gus Hiddink is unemployed right now - if he took on the Australia and South Korea jobs, he'd give us a look, surely? Glen Hoddle's been mentioned by a few people, I think also a potentially interesting choice, if you can stomach his dubious beliefs. In the more humdrum department, Alan Curbishley? I'd also suggest Steve Coppell if it didn't appear that he's retired from football. I'm a fan of Mick Mac, but I think it'd be a mistake for him to come back, too much baggage.